Comments on: The Wishes of a Tibetan http://chinadigitaltimes.net/2008/04/the-wishes-of-a-tibetan/ Watching China Politics from Cyberspace Sat, 26 May 2012 16:47:33 +0000 hourly 1 http://wordpress.org/?v=3.3.1 By: srhttp://chinadigitaltimes.net/2008/04/the-wishes-of-a-tibetan/#comment-4515 sr Fri, 31 Oct 2008 03:03:39 +0000 http://chinadigitaltimes.net/2008/04/the-wishes-of-a-tibetan/#comment-4515 Oh, also to do a complete study we would also have to investigate whether or not the HongKong and Taiwanese Chinese truly represent the ancient Chinese culture or maybe they are just more socially evolved or maybe a combination of both. Now lets put our phsyco-sociology hats on :) Oh, also to do a complete study we would also have to investigate whether or not the HongKong and Taiwanese Chinese truly represent the ancient Chinese culture or maybe they are just more socially evolved or maybe a combination of both. Now lets put our phsyco-sociology hats on :)

]]> By: srhttp://chinadigitaltimes.net/2008/04/the-wishes-of-a-tibetan/#comment-4514 sr Fri, 31 Oct 2008 02:56:49 +0000 http://chinadigitaltimes.net/2008/04/the-wishes-of-a-tibetan/#comment-4514 jh, that is an interesting point worth more understanding. Pre- and Post-Chinese Cultural Revolution and the effects of psyche and behaviors of the common Chinese. Now that you bring it up, I believe might be significantly different. Though a few Chinese friends of mine have confirmed that it is part of the Han Chinese culture to think they are superior to the rest of the Asian and really everyother culture. Granted they are Chinese-American and may be out of touch with their "true" culture. But it would be very interesting to do some research to find out if this is actually true and whether or not it is a post-1950 construct. I sometimes forget that this post-1950 Chinese psyche is, depending on how you look at it, really in its infantile or adolescent stages. Which makes SOOO MUCH sense when trying to communicate with the pro-PRC crowd, its honestly like trying to reason with a hyperactive child.eventine, very good points. Anyone would be hardpressed to disagree...unless of course that someone was a hyperactive child with ADD ;) jh, that is an interesting point worth more understanding. Pre- and Post-Chinese Cultural Revolution and the effects of psyche and behaviors of the common Chinese. Now that you bring it up, I believe might be significantly different. Though a few Chinese friends of mine have confirmed that it is part of the Han Chinese culture to think they are superior to the rest of the Asian and really everyother culture. Granted they are Chinese-American and may be out of touch with their “true” culture. But it would be very interesting to do some research to find out if this is actually true and whether or not it is a post-1950 construct. I sometimes forget that this post-1950 Chinese psyche is, depending on how you look at it, really in its infantile or adolescent stages. Which makes SOOO MUCH sense when trying to communicate with the pro-PRC crowd, its honestly like trying to reason with a hyperactive child.

eventine, very good points. Anyone would be hardpressed to disagree…unless of course that someone was a hyperactive child with ADD ;)

]]> By: eventinehttp://chinadigitaltimes.net/2008/04/the-wishes-of-a-tibetan/#comment-4512 eventine Fri, 31 Oct 2008 02:00:01 +0000 http://chinadigitaltimes.net/2008/04/the-wishes-of-a-tibetan/#comment-4512 I agree - it's up to them. I was simply suggesting what Chinese society would have to become if it's to run a truly enduring multi-ethnic state, as opposed to simply pay lip service to the concept. As for chauvinism, I think the same sort of tendencies existed in most societies before the advent of anti-racism and multi-culturalism. Certainly, if you look at American history, as recent as the 1950s non-whites were still viewed as second-class citizens. It was really the civil rights movements around that time that made the difference.If the PRC is to move forward as a multi-ethnic state (and in many ways it must, because Tibetans aren't the only minorities in China), it likely has to go through something similar. Failure to do so will ensure that calls for independence will become louder and fiercer. This is why I said, earlier, that China has a choice - it can fragment into several nation-states, or it can unite but under different terms than presently exist. Specifically, it cannot operate under the assumption that unity as a state is equivalent to ethnic unity or homogeneity. Tibetans are, as you say, not the same as "Han Chinese" (and to a lesser degree, "Han Chinese" are not the same as each other) - consequently, in order for them to prosper under the same state, a system that respects and accommodates differences must be created.Whether such a system, implemented today, can still "fix" things, or if it's already too late, is not something that I can predict. But surely it's preferable to the CCP's current "oppress and suppress" policies, which seem to generate only more suffering and resentment. I agree – it’s up to them. I was simply suggesting what Chinese society would have to become if it’s to run a truly enduring multi-ethnic state, as opposed to simply pay lip service to the concept. As for chauvinism, I think the same sort of tendencies existed in most societies before the advent of anti-racism and multi-culturalism. Certainly, if you look at American history, as recent as the 1950s non-whites were still viewed as second-class citizens. It was really the civil rights movements around that time that made the difference.

If the PRC is to move forward as a multi-ethnic state (and in many ways it must, because Tibetans aren’t the only minorities in China), it likely has to go through something similar. Failure to do so will ensure that calls for independence will become louder and fiercer. This is why I said, earlier, that China has a choice – it can fragment into several nation-states, or it can unite but under different terms than presently exist. Specifically, it cannot operate under the assumption that unity as a state is equivalent to ethnic unity or homogeneity. Tibetans are, as you say, not the same as “Han Chinese” (and to a lesser degree, “Han Chinese” are not the same as each other) – consequently, in order for them to prosper under the same state, a system that respects and accommodates differences must be created.

Whether such a system, implemented today, can still “fix” things, or if it’s already too late, is not something that I can predict. But surely it’s preferable to the CCP’s current “oppress and suppress” policies, which seem to generate only more suffering and resentment.

]]> By: jhhttp://chinadigitaltimes.net/2008/04/the-wishes-of-a-tibetan/#comment-4509 jh Fri, 31 Oct 2008 01:18:49 +0000 http://chinadigitaltimes.net/2008/04/the-wishes-of-a-tibetan/#comment-4509 sr, it has been my own experience on travels through Tibet that contemporary mainland Chinese and Tibetans really are very much like oil and water, to use this analogy. What I found, though, was that Taiwanese or Hongkong Chinese, at least the travellers that I met, still tended to represent some of that ancient Chinese culture that was wiped out by the Communists on the mainland. And that did go along with Tibetan culture a lot better.The incompatibility, from my point of view, is less Chinese vs. Tibetan but CCP authoritarian "non-culture" vs. Tibetan Buddhist culture of liberation of the mind. Naturally, those two don't meet... sr,
it has been my own experience on travels through Tibet that contemporary mainland Chinese and Tibetans really are very much like oil and water, to use this analogy.
What I found, though, was that Taiwanese or Hongkong Chinese, at least the travellers that I met, still tended to represent some of that ancient Chinese culture that was wiped out by the Communists on the mainland.
And that did go along with Tibetan culture a lot better.

The incompatibility, from my point of view, is less Chinese vs. Tibetan but CCP authoritarian “non-culture” vs. Tibetan Buddhist culture of liberation of the mind.
Naturally, those two don’t meet…

]]> By: srhttp://chinadigitaltimes.net/2008/04/the-wishes-of-a-tibetan/#comment-4508 sr Fri, 31 Oct 2008 00:57:42 +0000 http://chinadigitaltimes.net/2008/04/the-wishes-of-a-tibetan/#comment-4508 I think we are talking about additive issues. I'm outlining from personal experience the intrinsic cultural differences between the majority of Chinese and Tibetans that naturally repel each other, like oil and water. Political reasonings for division are, yes, the blatant intolerance, culture-genocide, covert genocide and historical events in Tibet. Though I would love to be proven wrong here, but a large part of the animosity between Chinese and Tibetans has to do with not only these events of post-1951, but a sort of chauvanism that is very common among the common Chinese. This attitude is against just about every tenent of the Tibetan culture. And this is just the tip of the iceberg, so to speak, in terms of the oil and water issues. Though I dont want to sound to dire. I have many Chinese friends, and they know where I stand. Some actually whole heartedly support the Tibetan cause, though amazingly even in America some are hesitant(mostly because they are intrigued by the Tibetan culture and I suspect they want to identify with it, and they think that "possession" is the only way). Regardless I think it is possible from my experience that peace and harmony is possible between these two great cultures. BUT I have not lived in Tibet for the past 50+ years! and that is a huge point. I can not even begin to understand the long term effect of the attrocities Tibetan people in Tibet have gone through over the years since. It is up to them. I think we are talking about additive issues. I’m outlining from personal experience the intrinsic cultural differences between the majority of Chinese and Tibetans that naturally repel each other, like oil and water. Political reasonings for division are, yes, the blatant intolerance, culture-genocide, covert genocide and historical events in Tibet.
Though I would love to be proven wrong here, but a large part of the animosity between Chinese and Tibetans has to do with not only these events of post-1951, but a sort of chauvanism that is very common among the common Chinese. This attitude is against just about every tenent of the Tibetan culture. And this is just the tip of the iceberg, so to speak, in terms of the oil and water issues.
Though I dont want to sound to dire. I have many Chinese friends, and they know where I stand. Some actually whole heartedly support the Tibetan cause, though amazingly even in America some are hesitant(mostly because they are intrigued by the Tibetan culture and I suspect they want to identify with it, and they think that “possession” is the only way). Regardless I think it is possible from my experience that peace and harmony is possible between these two great cultures. BUT I have not lived in Tibet for the past 50+ years! and that is a huge point. I can not even begin to understand the long term effect of the attrocities Tibetan people in Tibet have gone through over the years since. It is up to them.

]]> By: eventinehttp://chinadigitaltimes.net/2008/04/the-wishes-of-a-tibetan/#comment-4506 eventine Thu, 30 Oct 2008 23:32:59 +0000 http://chinadigitaltimes.net/2008/04/the-wishes-of-a-tibetan/#comment-4506 I would argue that it is not necessarily the intrinsic separateness/difference in race, religion, language, etc. that gives rise to the need for division, but the abuse of that difference in everyday life. When Tibetans are looked down upon for practicing their culture, and prevented from paying homage to their spiritual leader, *that* is when difference becomes a cause for political division.By contrast, immigrants from all corners of the world come to countries like the US and, at least initially, they are often as different as night and day. Yet, they manage to live together and flourish in such countries that accept everyone for who they are. Mind you, I won't deny that there are problems, but by and large the US has been and remains a bastion of multi-ethnic statehood. Even now a minority candidate runs for presidency - and minorities have long been represented in the highest echelons of American society, from business to science to art to military to politics.The trick is not to eschew difference, but to embrace it. Plurality, diversity, and heterogeneity can be strengths instead of weaknesses, and that is something that the PRC needs to understand. If, when a day comes, Tibetans find that they are respected for who they are and that their cultural separateness is considered a positive contribution to the diversity of the republic, then joint statehood may not seem so terrible. In the end, we are all different - it is by respecting those differences and cooperating in spite of them that better, fairer, and more inclusive societies can be built. I would argue that it is not necessarily the intrinsic separateness/difference in race, religion, language, etc. that gives rise to the need for division, but the abuse of that difference in everyday life. When Tibetans are looked down upon for practicing their culture, and prevented from paying homage to their spiritual leader, *that* is when difference becomes a cause for political division.

By contrast, immigrants from all corners of the world come to countries like the US and, at least initially, they are often as different as night and day. Yet, they manage to live together and flourish in such countries that accept everyone for who they are. Mind you, I won’t deny that there are problems, but by and large the US has been and remains a bastion of multi-ethnic statehood. Even now a minority candidate runs for presidency – and minorities have long been represented in the highest echelons of American society, from business to science to art to military to politics.

The trick is not to eschew difference, but to embrace it. Plurality, diversity, and heterogeneity can be strengths instead of weaknesses, and that is something that the PRC needs to understand. If, when a day comes, Tibetans find that they are respected for who they are and that their cultural separateness is considered a positive contribution to the diversity of the republic, then joint statehood may not seem so terrible. In the end, we are all different – it is by respecting those differences and cooperating in spite of them that better, fairer, and more inclusive societies can be built.

]]> By: srhttp://chinadigitaltimes.net/2008/04/the-wishes-of-a-tibetan/#comment-4505 sr Thu, 30 Oct 2008 22:10:13 +0000 http://chinadigitaltimes.net/2008/04/the-wishes-of-a-tibetan/#comment-4505 You are correct eventine. The Right to Self-Determination is a humane law of the World community that must be upheld in order to live in a world of, atleast, a relative common understanding and respect. And as human beings of the 21century we as a people of the human race can not keep making excuses for present injustices with mistakes and attrocities of the past (i.e. inhumane treatment of the Native American, Aboriginals, etc). The human race must learn from these attrocities of the past and socially evolve. Plus, thank you for your clarification on the word "Chinese". I realize that this designation is complicated. Though from the point of view of Tibetans, it is a mute point. Not that it is not interesting though. I am actually intrigued by all historical events and facts throughout asia and of course my own leanings to Central Asian history. The histories of Tibetans and the people of China Proper have been incredibly separate, considering their proximity. And it is this separateness/difference in race, religion, language, culture, etc that the PRC knows will lead to the formation of Tibet Proper. Whether it be as a truly autonomous region or an independent Nation. You are correct eventine.
The Right to Self-Determination is a humane law of the World community that must be upheld in order to live in a world of, atleast, a relative common understanding and respect. And as human beings of the 21century we as a people of the human race can not keep making excuses for present injustices with mistakes and attrocities of the past (i.e. inhumane treatment of the Native American, Aboriginals, etc). The human race must learn from these attrocities of the past and socially evolve.
Plus, thank you for your clarification on the word “Chinese”. I realize that this designation is complicated. Though from the point of view of Tibetans, it is a mute point. Not that it is not interesting though. I am actually intrigued by all historical events and facts throughout asia and of course my own leanings to Central Asian history. The histories of Tibetans and the people of China Proper have been incredibly separate, considering their proximity. And it is this separateness/difference in race, religion, language, culture, etc that the PRC knows will lead to the formation of Tibet Proper. Whether it be as a truly autonomous region or an independent Nation.

]]> By: srhttp://chinadigitaltimes.net/2008/04/the-wishes-of-a-tibetan/#comment-4500 sr Thu, 30 Oct 2008 21:06:59 +0000 http://chinadigitaltimes.net/2008/04/the-wishes-of-a-tibetan/#comment-4500 George: -HH the Dalai Lama has been merely exercising a little something called diplomacy. -Don't confuse your dreams with reality. George:
-HH the Dalai Lama has been merely exercising a little something called diplomacy.
-Don’t confuse your dreams with reality.

]]> By: George002765http://chinadigitaltimes.net/2008/04/the-wishes-of-a-tibetan/#comment-4496 George002765 Thu, 30 Oct 2008 20:24:39 +0000 http://chinadigitaltimes.net/2008/04/the-wishes-of-a-tibetan/#comment-4496 foolish enough to believe foolish enough to believe

]]> By: George002765http://chinadigitaltimes.net/2008/04/the-wishes-of-a-tibetan/#comment-4495 George002765 Thu, 30 Oct 2008 20:23:36 +0000 http://chinadigitaltimes.net/2008/04/the-wishes-of-a-tibetan/#comment-4495 Because she comparing Hell and brimstone China to paradise in the sky India People live in glasshouse should not throw stone As for Tibet you will always be Outsider looking In As long as Tibetan foolish enough that apeealing to the west is gonna forced China to make concession Tibet belong to China and that has been decided long time agoWith upcoming appointment with the destiny DL has not much time left After him the TIG will wither and split up in all direction like hen with not mother Because she comparing Hell and brimstone China to paradise in the sky India People live in glasshouse should not throw stone As for Tibet you will always be Outsider looking In As long as Tibetan foolish enough that apeealing to the west is gonna forced China to make concession Tibet belong to China and that has been decided long time ago

With upcoming appointment with the destiny DL has not much time left After him the TIG will wither and split up in all direction like hen with not mother

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