AM–Please do this for me, and actually for yourself. Find a nice quiet place where you feel comfortable. Try to center your mind for calm collected thinking that is void of ego, jealousy, greed, chauvanism…and then think about your fathers very interesting concepts. This exercise should lead you to the truth. Tibetans in Tibet, deserve to live the way that they want to live. Why is it so hard for Chinese to understand that Tibetans don’t want to be considered Chinese, or even Chinese-Tibetan??? Your use of the term “Chinese-Tibetan” speaks volumes about what the PRC has been trying to do to Tibetan identity in Tibet Proper for the last 60 years! Just because apparently the Manchus have accepted this ‘Chinese’ identity does in NO way mean that Tibetans ever will. So sorry.

BTW, HH the DL has already set up a democratic Tibetan Government in D’sala that has been functioning for many years now. What makes you think he would go back to a theocracy of the past? You know his predecessor started reforms of the theocracy way before Chinese colonialization. And it was sure to continue.

And would you mind reading a bit more thoroughly? I wrote:
“Tibet can be religious AND democratic – just like India is. No need to mix up the two.”
This is called a secular democracy accomodating all religious as well as non-religious faiths.
So Hui as well as Communist Han would also be covered and enjoy the very same rights.
BTW, did you know that even the Chinese constitution is supposed to guarantee the freedom of religious belief?

To answer your question:
I don’t support human sacrifice for any belief.
In fact, may I return your question:
Do you support the slaughter of students on Tiananmen and Tibetan monks and nuns for political reasons, i.e. the survival of the Communist party which is also just another form of belief?
As I said, I don’t.

So Jesus said Give to Caesar what belong to Caesar and give to god what belong to god!

Great quote AM! That certainly apply to Dalai Lama

Cell phones that have international (world) capabilities are all satellite. The phones have the capability to change modes internally. The simi cards can be programed to show prepaid minutes allowing one to operate the without China Mobile as the carrier. If the phone is registered for the country one is in when calling it will not move to satellite mode. This can be removed by simply buy a phone outside the country, buying a gray or black market good internally, wiping the cell and using a simi card that is not linked to the country where one is making the call. I hope that clears things up for you. In the US only certain brands are world ready. However the majority of all cell phone should in Europe have this technology.

I do not consider wikipedia a legitimate source for information. Call Cingular or At&t and ask about their cell phones.

Their vision, hhmm do you mean the Dali Lama’s vision? And what is HIS vision? How will Tibet function if his demands are met? Will the Chinese Tibetans welcome a return to theocracy? Why does the Dali Lama need to rule Tibet?

Tibet should be like India, hhmmm so which lucky group would become Tibet’s Dalits? India case system speaks to Tibet’s history. Why does the Dali Lama refuse to discuss the atrocities in Tibet not caused by the CCP? How does the Dali Lama remove his ego but not face the pass transgressions that occurred in the place he claims to represent?

My father taught me two important lessons, that I apply to the Dali Lama’s rhetoric:
“People listen to the loudest not the smartest.”
and
“No one or thing can change the past, you can try to deny it, you can try to hide it, and/or hide from it but you will never change it. Unless you can face the past and acknowledge it, the past will haunt you.”

i hope you have a nice day.

Am

Side note, please consider these question do not contain any form of provocation: Would you/Do you support human sacrifice if it is for religious reasons?
Would you feel differently if you found out Buddhism developed much later and closer in date to the common era?

I have had a look into the first article and it didn’t click with me. As you say, it may well be that we live in different worlds.
But so do the Tibetans and the Chinese. And that wouldn’t have to be a problem if the Chinese allowed the Tibetans to live their lives according to their visions – even within one China. See my previous links in my reply to John.

http://www.tibet.net/en/index.php?id=78&articletype=press

http://www.tibet.net/en/index.php?id=343&rmenuid=11

John, you should not mistake propaganda for the real thing.

And this Yang Jiechi should wash his mouth for putting words into other peoples’ mouths!

“The Dalai Lama’s side still insists on establishing a so-called Greater Tibet on a quarter of Chinese territory. They want to drive away Chinese armed forces on Chinese territory and ask all non-Tibetans to relocate themselves, people who have long spent their lives on that part of Chinese territory. You call this person a religious figure?” Yang said.

“Would Germany, France or other countries accept that a quarter of their territory be separated? Please keep in mind that China was always a supporter of German reunification.”

The difference between China and Dalai Lama has nothing to do with religion, human rights, ethnic relations and culture. It is an issue of whether to defend China’s unity against attempts to separate Tibet from China, he said.

Why does anyplace or area (defined by lines) need to be any precept?

As it stands, do you really feel that the Dali Lama’s contentious relationship with China, is helping the people of Tibet (in Tibet)? Can you conceive of answering this question without invoking the Dali Lama’s claims?

Serfdom in China if one could use this term could in a very slight way be compared to policies used by the CCP. The tax records and land transfers since the Han Dynasty clearly show that serfdom was not part of the society.

I have struggled to understand the logic my society has allowed me to embody and find it very difficult to escape from. I have included a link discussing some of the writers who have helped me be come more aware of this logic.

I also do not live in a democracy nor did I grow-up in a democracy. I live a society where democracy is a word, an ideology, that only exists for a limited sect yet, they claim it is for all. My country also had a religious orthodoxy, anti-communism. I guess we live in very different worlds.

My country helps other countries establish democracy, in December 2006, my country claimed an artificial superiority in Saddam Hussein’s execution and that same month hosted Pinochet funeral.

http://www.associatedcontent.com/article/447481/fanon_and_cesaire_colonialism_and_decolonization.html?cat=37
http://www.associatedcontent.com/article/447481/fanon_and_cesaire_colonialism_and_decolonization.html?cat=37

As George prove in other thread those number quoted by Free Tibet is nothing but lie In Fact the fertility rate of Tibetan is only 16%
http://www.unescap.org/esid/psis/population/database/chinadata/tibet.htm#pop

And the number death for GLF is nothing but the fantasy of Historian Farquahar from China Journal that spread those lie

The official number of death is only 16 million and most of it due to natural disaster. There is this demographer I believe her name is Judith Banister who extrapolate the official number and add it up to 50 million nothing but a big lie that has been regurgited since then.

Here is the link study it first before you open your mouth
http://www.monthlyreview.org/0906ball.htm

Banister calculates the total number of under-reported deaths in this period by first calculating the total number of births between the two censuses of 1953 and 1964. She does this using data derived from the census and data from a retrospective fertility survey carried out in 1982. (Participants in the survey were asked to describe the number of babies they had given birth to between 1940 and 1981). Once the population of 1953 and 1964 is known, and the total number of births between these two years is known, it is possible to calculate the number of deaths that would have occurred during this period. She uses this information to calculate a total number of deaths for the eleven year period that is much higher than official death rates show.

To estimate how many of these deaths occurred in the Great Leap Forward, Banister returns to the official Chinese death rate statistics. She assumes that these figures indicate the actual trend of deaths in China in this period, even though they were too low in absolute terms. For example, she assumes that the official death rate of 25 per thousand in 1960 does indeed indicate that a huge increase in the death rate occurred in 1960. However, she combines this with her estimates of under-reporting of deaths in the period 1953-1964 to come up with a figure of 45 deaths per thousand in 1960. In years in which no famine is alleged the death toll also increases using this method. In 1957, for example, she increases the death rate from the official figure of 10.8 per thousand to 18 per thousand. Banister then compares the revised death rates in good years with the revised death rates in alleged famine years. Banister is then able to come up with her estimate of 30 million deaths excess deaths during the Great Leap Forward.36

I have not had a cell phone in China, and while I am aware of the market presence of China Mobile, there may also be other providers.
Are you suggesting that these providers will not be subject to government control? I doubt it.

Who should decolonize oneself? I am not sure that I understand.
I have never in my life been colonized but was lucky to be born in a free democratic country.
The Tibetans have been trying to decolonize themselves for almost 60 years, but that is probably not what you are refering to.

As for the horrors under the Tibetan theocracy, it seems to me to have been less than under Mao’s and his successors’ CCP. During Mao’s rule in China some 50 million were killed directly or indirectly, in (Greater) Tibet probably in between half a million and 1.2 million.
That is what I call a horror!

But I agree with you. I am all for a full-fledged secular democracy in Tibet without involvement of monastic institutions. Tibet can be religious AND democratic – just like India is. No need to mix up the two.

China is playing the “serfdom” card because it has no other. There was feudalism in China as well at the time, so it really is a joke.
It is only to have “some” justification for their invasion of Tibet because – not unlike Iraq – their lie of liberating the Tibetans from imperial forces was a lie only. One that no one is buying anymore…

As much as the US don’t belong into Iraq, China does not belong into Tibet.

Tibet has always been an alien part of China.

I am very sorry that you have not been to China or have not been their recently, I recommend visiting if you are unable to live there for some time. If you have not been recently it is changing at a rate you need to see to understand.

Buying a cell phone, not connected to China Mobile is very easy. I was referencing western media in the area at various time and not monks. But have you been to any of the Dali Lama’s teaching, talks… anything, did you fail to notice the use of technology at these events?

Technology is global and I think your assumption that these monks are living in a static environment, only speaks to a latent embrace of “orientalism”.

Have you read anything on decolonizing oneself? If you would like some book titles, I would be happy to provide you with some suggestions.

Please do not argue that you can not get in to Tibet. If you have a journalist visa, then it would be much more difficult however two of the leading American journalist in China, do not have journalist visas.

Please consider formalizing yourself with immigration and migration theories. I think this would help for you to understand why movement between the provinces would not cease.

I understand that you do not agree with George or me. I too failed to understand the Dali Lama as the leader of a theocracy and the horrors that occurred. I failed to understand the auspicious sect of Tibetan Buddhism. I didn’t know that only that the division of labor was based on serfdom and slavery. I embraced the idea/concept of Tibet. I failed to understand the the smile the Dali Lama mentions the Tibetan use to have when they saw him. It was not until I embraced writers like WEB Du Bois, Franz Fanon and Paul Laurence Dunbar. It was in understanding the smile, that I feel a conviction to explain to those who have not questioned the Dali Lama, to do so.

I am older and with age I know I am not wiser. I have just learned to ask more question of myself and of others.

Why will the Dali Lama only give brief answers when questioned about serfdom and slavery in Tibet?

Please research the history, read the accounts from Germany, Great Britain, recorded accounts from Nepal in Japan.

If you are not comfortable questionings than you are not comfortable with your belief.

I wish you the best.

Estimates are that Mao’s rule has cost the lives of some 50 million Chinese. This number includes direct murders related to “class struggle”, cultural revolution, mass collectivization, deaths due to famines caused by CCP policies and so on.
That would have roughly be one out of ten Chinese whose death is to blame on Mao or the CPP at the time.

If we apply this ratio to Tibetan areas assuming in China’s favour that Tibet was not worse off than China proper itself, that would give us an estimate of 600000 Tibetans killed due to the Chinese invasion of Tibet.

I reckon that is still 600000 too many…

WISH the 1.2 million Tibetan deaths directly because of the Chinese colonialist invasion and occupation were a bad dream….but they are unfortunately not

But where is the proof. Nobody has yet to find mount of skeleton or the mass grave. Well with so many Free Tibetan roaming TAR and other Tibet inhabitant they will be found or somebody will point it to them as “smoking gun proof” Where is the Treblinka, Auscwhich, Buchenwald of Tibet? None found sofar!

Just like recent mantra of 200 people killed in recent Riot but no name When TGIE recall name . They are still alive or non existent name So much for the credibility of TGIE

I never doubt the ferocity of fight and Yes a lot of people get killed I just disputed the fantastic number

I WISH the 1.2 million Tibetan deaths directly because of the Chinese colonialist invasion and occupation were a bad dream….but they are unfortunately not.

“May the Tibetans be happy in Tibet, and the Chinese happy in China”!!

My number is based on 1950 census. Of course there are more than 7 milion Tibetan now both in TAR and what is called Amdo and Kham

Those 1.5 million death is nothing but fantasy. You can calculate is yourself. Assuming there are only 2.25 Million people in 1950. If 1.5 million dead that will leave only .75 million people alive. Excluding old people and children(30%), that will leave around 0.5 million couple of which if we also exclude old couple that will only leave 300 thousand child bearing couple.

Now assuming there are now 7.5 million Tibetan, there is increase of 6.8 million tibetan over 50 years. So the p the average infant born per year, is 130 thousand. Now divide 300,000 by 2 and you got 150,00 fertile wommen. In other word every women in Tibet has to be pregnant at the same time. inorder to reach the present 7.5 million Tibetan statistically impossibility!

Whether I was in China or not is irrelevant. And I never say I never been to China nor do I say I don’t have relative in China

Are you suggesting that if a Tibetan monk has a mobile with China Mobile, his connections are routed via satellite and the provider China Mobile wouldn’t have a clue what he is talking or texting?

Did you win your blackberry in the lottery?

It seems strange that the Tibetans are supposedly so happy (and all those naive Westerners fooled by Orientalism), if at the same time China refuses entry to independent travellers, observers, media and the UN human rights inspectors while blanketing the country with army and PAP.

As the old proverb goes:
“It is better to see once than to hear a thousand times!”

I have seen it twice with my own eyes, and I can only recommend it to everyone…

Thank you, for discussing Tibet with an understanding of history. When I was younger, I accepted and admired the Dali Lama. Now, older and wiser, I see him as the largest exporter, promoter of what Edward Said termed “Orientalism”. He utilizes these constructed notions to promote his agenda, capturing the hearts and minds of individuals who are unaware of what his mythical Tibet/Shangri La really contained. These constructed notions have become the normative view towards Tibet.

I laughed when newspapers claimed that the CCP, had been able to censor the movement of information in Tibet. If you have a cell phone that can make international calls, (I use a blackberry) your phone and internet services go to a satellite by passing the great firewall of China. I guess for many, their image of Shangri La doesn’t contain hordes of tourists.

China becoming a democracy simply because it has interjected some market economy features into their economy and communism required advanced industry. Oh, is democracy is a mechanist feature of a market economy? Thank you George, for acknowledging that a country so creative in its transition from plan to market, does not need to follow in the footsteps of conventional forms of government.