Chinese Dissident Liu Xiaobo Formally Arrested
Jane MacCartney for the Times Online:
China’s most prominent dissident has been formally arrested after more than six months in detention at a secret location near Beijing on charges that could bring a lengthy prison term.
Liu Xiaobo had been held virtually incommunicado under “residential surveillance”, allowed only two visits from his wife, since he was taken from his Beijing home on December 8 – a day before publication of a document he co-authored calling for democracy in China.
It said Mr Liu, 53, had confessed to the charges. This is the first time the longtime critic of the government has faced such serious charges. He could be sentenced to a maximum of 15 years, his lawyer said. His lawyer, Mo Shaoping, told The Times he would demand an immediate meeting with Mr Liu.
See also CDT’s previous articles on Liu Xiaobo and Charter ‘08, the document Liu co-authored that likely led to his arrest. See also a post from Siweiluozi’s Blog that excerpts comment on the arrest from blogger Liu Lu.
POSTED COMMENTS: 62 Responses
It’s a shame this “Charter 08″ guy just wanted to use an old trick from East European, having seen how some Balkan countries endured horrible consequence. He got enough trouble already just by making the suggestion of ‘republic of Tibet”. Not many people give sympathy toward him in China.
Shane says, “Not many people give sympathy toward him in China.”
1) Few people have heard of either Liu Xiaobo or Charter 08. That accounts for some of the lack of sympathy.
2) In addition, China has many unsympathetic, flag-waving idiots like Shane who gleefully root against brave patriots like Liu Xiaobo even when it’s not in their best interest to do so.
Shane’s parents should be ashamed. Their son is an idiot.
@Ma Bole
You are just a shameless westner “Lao Wei” wanting China to become a place of total chaos in order to satisfy your dark motive.
Shane –
Your Hanyu pinyin stinks, as does your English. Spend less time reading blogs, and more time studying. A mind is a terrible thing to waste.
By the way – I was born and raised in HK.
@Ma Bole
Thanks for your suggestion. Let me share with you one of my recent study and essay, and also spend time try to educate yourself more.
”
Many members of western press and intellectuals suffer a deep perception gap on modern day China. The root cause is their persistent refusal to recognize the political legitimacy of modern day Chinese philosophy and ideology. Through their own glimpse on China, a popular thinking is that the current CCP leadership is helpless and inward looking, trying everything just to stay in power. This view may look logical on the surface, yet can not more further from truth.
The Chinese leadership and political elites have established a unique brand of worldview for themselves through a long history of both internal philosophical debate and practices on the ground. This Chinese brand of philosophy and ideology give them guidance and confidence on what they want to be in the future and in the world. The leadership and political elites are not afraid of looking outward to introduce to themselves to new ideas and opportunities, yet they also hold true to their belief of self-reliance and self-development.
The contradiction arises from their passiveness and dynamism, stubbornness and openness, showing of leaping progressive attitude on one hand while pay little regard to western liberal values may confuse and arouse many in the West, yet it looks perfectly harmonious through the lens of Chinese culture.
China nowadays looks like a stock that keeps rising, yet the leadership may refuse to give any guidance beyond the next immediate quarter. The underlying reason is due to Deng’s wisdom of ‘holding capability to yourself and bidding for your time. Recognizing the stage of development in Chinese society, the leaders have been bending backward hard to raise the living standard for common people.
“
China is falling deeper into decadence
by arresting Liu Xiaobo.
Blatant liars and dictators.
What did they pledge when they received the Olympics?
Brainwashed. Blaming western cultures and media for everything.
Pls stop gloating about the rise of China. Pride comes before a fall.
The leaders’ worldview – we have 1.3 billion people. We are a big market. You must grovel to us.
Bravo Charter 08.
My praises and thoughts are with Liu Xiaobo and his wife. Very courageous people indeed!
As for the leadership who inflict suffering on the couple, may retribution come to them soon.
It is true the west is not to be trusted. For whatever it’s worth, every large power will act according to its own interests and they will want others to be like them, to listen and follow them. Eventually China will also become as guilty as the western countries, trying to influence other countries which it is already starting to do in regions unfriendly to the west. But 1 thing I can say about western societies is that the degree of transparency and accountability of their govts is definitely a lot higher than that in China today. Make no mistake, China has made great efforts to be democratic even within the communist party the last decades. Now I refuse to believe that China needs to give up its cultural and nationalistic identity to bow to the west. But I also refuse to believe why Chinese cannot benefit and learn from the best of western political, cultural and social ideas which can only serve to strengthen China, not weaken it.
But 1 thing I can say about western societies is that the degree of transparency and accountability of their govts is definitely a lot higher than that in China today. Make no mistake,
Yeah listen to this Peter Schiff. Now who is lying here one of them is telling the truth
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=2I0QN-FYkpw&feature=related
Or why politician doesn’t like to tell bad news to their constituent talking about tranparency You are brain washed to the hilt
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=OS2fI2p9iVs
Brainwashed. Blaming western cultures and media for everything.
Pls stop gloating about the rise of China. Pride comes before a fall.
The leaders’ worldview – we have 1.3 billion people. We are a big market. You must grovel to us.
Now who is brain washed here
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=9h2×7R8pxUs&feature=related
“But 1 thing I can say about western societies is that the degree of transparency and accountability of their govts is definitely a lot higher than that in China today”
True in some sense. But that is also the result of gradual evolution. China is evolving too, with in fact a very young but dynamic civil society.
There were wide-spread riots in LA during Rodney King incident and recently in Okaland, California. No one seemed to jump on these civil incidents and predicted a potential falling of US political system. However, it is not the same when coming to China. Some people just like to jump on any kind of civil events there and amplify them …
Do we ever hear the west blaming the east for their political troubles?
Does all-rounded exposure exist in China? Or is it always the party’s line? If not brainwashed, then what?
@A-Bao
You are as brainwashed as Gordon Chang, a notorious China hater.
Does all-rounded exposure exist in China? Or is it always the party’s line? If not brainwashed, then what?
@ A Bao as Shane said your one liner is least appreciated. Speak up if you have idea
Most people move on with time but this guy Liu Xiaobao seem to be stucked in 1989. I just wonder why he is so persistent, when most of his comrade has moved on to become succesfull bussinessman or academician contributing positively to society.
Why can he not change the system by working from inside, instead he like to use wrecking ball and gutted everything, when the system is comparatively seem to work. If ain’t broke don’t change it
His request to dismantle the system is tantamount to repudiating and sacrilege to the memory of millions of people who died in WW II and the ensuing civil war
It will invite strong reaction and result in civil war or another massacre like TAM
As Victor Gao Zhukai said, China cannot afford another upheaval It will literarily destroy the country
http://chinadigitaltimes.net/2009/05/victor-gao%ef%bc%9aopinion-the-end-of-revolution/
Unless his mission is to destroy China from inside. Why is he such nuissance “enfant terrible”?. Butting your head against the wall is not going to get you anywhere. Probably he is trying to provide for his family by working for one of those NGO that try to destroy China?
I have more respect for farmer who built biogass out of animal dropping and in so doing improve the life of his fellow villager like this guy Rong Wenxi here http://www.fao.org/world/regional/rap/news_detail.asp?event_id=38555&year=2008
than self important but clueless intelectual who long behind the curve and hell bent to create confrontation and chaos
Some distinctions here.
China – geographical name of the place.
No, far from it, I don’t hate China. I think China has a lot of scenic places and worthy cultural sites. Great country.
But, “China” is not one and the same as CCP, Chinese people, Chinese culture, Chinese places, Chinese values, Chinese customs, etc. Please note.
Maybe the CCP have brainwashed all her subjects to think that China means everything above.
@zhenghong
Eventually China will also become as guilty as the western countries, trying to influence other countries which it is already starting to do in regions unfriendly to the west
No it doesn’t. Look back in history. When China was strong and able to send 30,000 man inside 350 Ships all over the then known world. Did China colonized South East Asia,Sri Langka, Arabia, No instead she bring greeting to the local king and invite them to trade and live peacefully.
Contrast that to the voyages of Columbus or other conquistador who sail to South America and appropriate, killing and plundering the land of Incas in the name of King of Spain!
And who has bases all around China in Yokosuka,Okinawa Japan, Korea, Diego Garcia and regularly exercise to remind China who is biggest kid in the block and working feverishly to contain China ? Just answer that please!
More stupidity from John_01.
Diego Garcia is in the Indian Ocean. Hardly China’s backyard. The U.S. has SOFA agreements with both Korea and Japan. Either one of those countries could ask the U.S. to leave if their governments felt it was in their best interest to do so. As it stands, however, they continue prefer a U.S. military presence. China’s lack of military transparency and yearly defense spending increases means that the U.S. will probably be parked just outside China’s border for some time to come.
As for attempts to contain/influence China, that’s simply great power politics at work. Welcome to the big leagues. China likes to bitch and moan when the U.S. navy sails too close or when powerful Western nations attempt to influence China’s economic and trade policies. On the other hand, little is said about China’s own aggressive intrusions into the affairs of others. The idea that China is a purely honest and friendly participant in the global order is laughable. China gives as good as it gets these days.
As for China always having been a peaceloving and friendly country, I suggest that you return to the classroom and bone-up on your history. In fact, China is a long-time imperial power, going all the way back to the Han.
The truth about the Ming dynasty’s impressive naval visits to Africa is that they were simply too expensive to maintain. The idea, however, that China was there simply to shake some hands is complete b.s. – the kind of crap you learn in a Chinese middle school history class.
Keep working on your English, John_01.
Diego Garcia is in the Indian Ocean. Hardly China’s backyard
Who said anything about China’s backyard . America use it to store and preposition weapon to be used against China. If that is not containing then you are in delusion!
As for China always having been a peaceloving and friendly country, I suggest that you return to the classroom and bone-up on your history. In fact, China is a long-time imperial power, going all the way back to the Han.
Yes but China doesn’t killed, massacred Indian. Today you can still find living breathing, speaking 50 minorities each with their own languages and customs in China
When did you ever hear Lakota, Mohican,Lackawana spoken in US ? except in museum!
You need to work on your logic
China likes to bitch and moan when the U.S. navy sails too close or when powerful Western nations attempt to influence China’s economic and trade policies. On the other hand, little is said about China’s own aggressive intrusions into the affairs of others.
Do your math before you start blabbering about empty propaganda and nonsense
US spend about 590 bllion dollars on defense and that does not include supplemental spending for war in irak and Afghanistan. Nor does it include expensive weapon laboratory like Lawence livermore or subsidy for research and development.
So total spending is probably around 900 billion dollars. US spend sonsistenly 4.5% to 7% of GDP as long as I remember
China spend only 79 billion dollars for year 2009 and only now make up for decades of neglect up to 1990 because of more pressing need
79 billion our of 4.4 Trillion dollars economy work out about less than 2%
And who invade Irak, Afghanistan, Panaman, Granada, Vietnam, Korea?
I guess coming from coolie class immigrant, you are not used to think for yourself but has to be told what to do by western media really pathetic
John_01 -
Your arguments in favor of Chinese righteousness are both ignorant and laughable.
Your comments are increasingly loony, John_01. In addition, they are riddled with spelling and grammatical errors. I suggest that you compose your comments in MS Word first, use spell check, and only then enter them here. Better yet, run them by a native English-speaking friend.
Your English and world view are both shameful. If you are China’s future, China’s in bad shape.
Go study your Chinese history books, those of you who claim to be China lovers.
Go read about how Dr Sun Yatsen and his allies persisted with his fight for what he believed to be right for his country and fellow countrymen. As is the case with Liu Xiaobo, he didn’t give up halfway.
Not everyone only has dollars in their eyes. If you do, you have been brainwashed by the CCP. That is what the CCP teaches – make your money and let us stay in power. A great country like China is sinking into moral degradation.
A building under construction has collapsed in Shanghai. The shoddiness China is famous for nowadays leaves a lot to be desired. Unsafe foods, unsafe toys, unsafe buildings.
Not everyone only has dollars in their eyes. If you do, you have been brainwashed by the CCP. That is what the CCP teaches – make your money and let us stay in power. A great country like China is sinking into moral degradation
I rather make money than war cappici
Better yet, run them by a native English-speaking friend.
You can’t shot my argument now you change subject to english, I am a lousy typist and the there is no provision for editing in this forum.
John_01 -
China hasn’t been great for a very very long time, John_01. Remind me – when was the last of the four great inventions? Intellectually, China’s not given the world much this past 1,000 years except Mao Zedong Thought. Not much of a legacy, if you ask me. 1.3 billion people and not a single, indigenous Nobel. Hell, after years of trying, the Chinese can’t even field a decent soccer team. Look’s to me like China’s way is the way of mediocrity.
The West invented the modern world, John_01. China was (and is) just a wannabe. A faker. China wants to be the U.S. but can’t. There is no wonderful Chinese version of modernity to look forward to. China’s effect on the world is likely to be mostly negative.
Again, try using spell check. It should be, “You can’t shoot my argument down.” Poor typing doesn’t explain your poor English.
Ma Bole
LOL, you are utterly devoid of historical perspective or otherwise. Perhaps you should ask yourself what the Europeans were doing when the Chinese were developing their inventions.
Then a hundred years down the road from now, somebody, somwhere will probably say what you’ve just said, but substitute China for Europe or America.
I suggest you visit a few more museums in Europe or the US and inquire after the term “Chinoiserie”. You’ll then come across lots of “fake” European products. As for something more contemporary, I suggest you look at artemisinin or the development of electric cars, solar technology etc. just to name a few.
Fundamentally, you are an ignorant, loud-mouth blowhard who knows or understand very little about China or anything else for that matter, nevermind the innovation process and their pre-conditions. I won’t even bother discussing your pitifully juvenile thought process. Sad git.
Chairman Mao told you to put him first even before your parents.
The regime now tells you to put money ahead of everything else. Their cunning ploy to blind the people, so that they can stay in power.
There is no war – only the CCP has the weaponry. It’s massacre, literally and otherwise. Putting out human life if they rise and stemming out dissenting voices if they speak out.
No need to fall back on past glories – very dangerous, and no pre-conditions will validate the killing of unarmed civilians. If there were innovation, why hadn’t they allowed in-depth probes into the school buildings which toppled in the big earthquake and buried so many young lives. Anything to cover up?
Their innovations — melamine milk, dyed oranges, false eggs, mass exam cheat scams, collapsible buildings, rat meat for pork, poisonous paint, and the list goes on. If you ask me what is the motive behind all these, I’d say it’s money.
China is a country rich in culture and civilisation, and it is exactly because of this that I think what a waste now.
Not many Lin Juemins exist among the Chinese or any nation for that matter, but a people without a critical mind won’t get the country very far. Do you ever ask: what’s all this censorship about, what or who are they trying to protect, what are they trying to cover up, and who they are trying to fool.
Yes, they may have put a man or two in space but China does not enjoy free education now, and people in the poor rural areas are struggling to put their children through school.
This is innovation.
Doc -
It takes a git to know I git, I guess.
As for my lack of familiarity with Chinese history and culture, you are in no position to judge. In any case, I’d say that my knowledge of China is as good or better than most. What’s more – there’s no chance that I know less than you. None. I was born, raised, and educated in HK. As such, I am a native speaker of both Mandarin and Cantonese. And as you can probably tell, my English isn’t half bad.
Don’t like my opinions, Doc? Bend over, put your head between your legs, and kiss your own arse.
China is a pretender. It’s been a long time since China was great. I wouldn’t waste my time waiting around for it to be great again.
[...] Meantime, Liu Xiaobo met with a lawyer, Shang Baojun, writes Underthejacaranda. His previous lawyer, Mo Shaoping (莫少平), has been disqualified to represent his client for signing the Charter 08, which was co-authored by Liu. [...]
The West invented the modern world, John_01. China was (and is) just a wannabe. A faker. China wants to be the U.S. but can’t. There is no wonderful Chinese version of modernity to look forward to. China’s effect on the world is likely to be mostly negative.
And yet Hillary Clinton went to Beijing begging China to keep buying treasury bill now who is faker here?.
keep blabbing your ignorance it show
John_01 -
What on earth does Hillary Clinton’s visit to China have to do with who invented the modern world? Absolutely nothing.
As for U.S. treasury bills – if China continues to buy them, I’m sure their decision has little to do with wanting to please either Hillary Clinton or Barack Obama. In other words, China has it’s own reasons for continuing to purchase American paper. In the short term, what are their options? In the end, however, China is still poor and America is still rich. That’s unlikely to change. Besides, America needs a lesson in belt tightening. Ten years from now, America will still be on top, and China will still be a wannabe.
John_01 – I may not be the smartest guy on the planet, but I’m smarter than you. Your English is shit. Write to me in Chinese if that’s easier for you.
@Nyima
” but China does not enjoy free education now, and people in the poor rural areas are struggling to put their children through school.”
China passed Law on Nine-Year Compulsory Education in 1986. The bill also authorized free education and subsidies for students whose families had financial difficulties
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Education_in_the_People%27s_Republic_of_China
It’s okay you don’t know, how it is possible for you to make a senseless remark before checking it out on the internet.
Now if America is so rich why the need to go to China. Hey you can keep the printing press humming do you?
My english may not be perfect but your logic and critical analysis is beyond help!
@ Ma Bole
LOL, born, raised and educated in HK eh? Well that probably explains alot. English ain’t half bad? LOL, 小人 self-praise?! Oh, what praise indeed! Unfortunately the same can’t be said for your ability to reason or put one and one together, LOL! What a fascinating mindset, noteworthy for all its glaring mediocrity.
You may know or speak Putonghua/Cantonese (I shudder at the possible accent though), but unfortunately your perspective and understanding of the world, nevermind that of China, remains that narrowly shaped by your obvious ego- and ethnocentric Western education and a concomitant feeble Weltanschauung of your own doing.
To put it in perspective you might be familiar with, think of the phrase, “We but stand on the shoulders of giants”. Now go and think about its meaning and its origin.
As for pretending, faking and imitating, why didn’t you know that these are but the first steps in all human learning process? Aren’t you aware that a vital part of the scientific and innovation process is precisely the ability to re-produce/replicate an experiment, a process, a result? What pitifully shallow and uneducated thinking you have.
For a clue, I suggest you go and look at the origins of mathematics, chemistry or physics or any of the major science discipline. Alternatively, you may want to check out the following book, “The Eastern Origins of Western Civilisation”, Hobson, Cambridge University Press. Now remember what I said about “Chinoiserie” earlier? Who knows the book might just broaden your horizon just a wee bit.
As for defective products, well that’s what happens when economic freedom is unleashed and such incidents are replete throughout human history, irrespective of cultures or nations. I suggest you think about the term “snake oil salesman” or check out “Carlill v Carbolic Smoke Ball Company”.
As for ass kissing, hmmm, I wonder how you know so much about it? Out of hygiene reasons, I’ll leave that particular fetish to your good self. You’re obviously a deft connoisseur, being already familiar with and well versed in its body mechanics going by your description of the process involved.
Ultimately, you remain a blowhard for your knowledge is narrow and your intellect is shallow, nevermind certain distasteful aspects of your personal habit and hygiene, what with all that ass kissing and all.
Is that right? So all these reports about rural parents not having enough money to send their children to school were wrong? Or were the parents cheated by local officials?
But this much I know. People I know have pooled funds together to build schools (not just one) in rural areas.
So the state provides the fees and not the school buildings. How strange.
Make no mistake. Not defective, but rather, products which are made to cheat. Is there something as a defective false egg? Perhaps: one whose fakeness can be detected.
Where’s China’s future if people who believe they are learned keep on resting on past laurels. Gloating about the past, gloating about the present, and gloating about the future. A true patriot will worry.
If nine years of education have supposedly been guaranteed by since 1986, I guess we know how much Chinese law is worth. After all, freedom of speech is supposedly protected by the Chinese constitution.
Defective/fake products, sub-prime mortgages, SUVs rolling over, elk tests, tyres blowout on US cars, Japanese food/mercury poisoning, that’s what you get with unbridled economic freedom. Welcome to capitalism, now go and bitch about that some more, children.
Oh yes and the US is supposed to recognise habeas corpus and ban torture, so what’s Gunatanamo and rendition all about? Nevermind the participation of Western intelligence services in rendered and “enhanced” interrogations.
As for effectiveness of laws, why somebody obviously never heard of seperation of powers and functions. LOL, what simplistic and juvenile understanding of jurisprudence and law enforcement some people have. Ahh, the idealism of an underdeveloped mind that is utterly lacking in any real world experience whatsoever. How preciously virginal, if not outright imbecilic LOL.
Doc -
Thanks for the lengthy reply. Insulting or not, I’m flattered.
In future posts, don’t bother recommending books. I have my own list. In any case, I’m better read than you. This I’m sure of. As for Hobson, his book is hardly the best of its kind. That you recommend it says much more about you than it says about the quality of Hobson’s work. Who’s the git?
As I said before, Doc, I’m a native Cantonese speaker. I’m somewhat proud of this because, as I’m sure you’re aware, Cantonese is among the oldest of all the various Chinese dialects. In fact, it is often compared to Tang period Chinese (much Tang poetry still rhymes in Cantonese). In addition, you needn’t shudder at the thought of my accented Mandarin – I lived and worked in Beijing for 6 years, during which time I met my wife and learned to speak the “common tongue” quite well. Much better than you anyway.
My response to being called a 小人 (you took a college survey or read a book?) is this: 大人不记小人过. I also like: 狗嘴里长不出象牙来.
You’re a hack, Doc. You might be king of the expats, but you can’t touch me. Take your ball and go home.
Wait. Difference here.
There is nothing as 100% perfect products and problems do occur. But the difference is whether the problems were caused by bad greedy intentions or whether they were Sunday-afternoon copies or the occasional slip-up. After all, we are only humans. Dyed fruit, melamine milk, false eggs, to which category do these belong?
Pls do not insult the Japanese although I know Nanjing is still very much on the Chinese people’s minds. Reports I’ve come across about food poisoning in Japan all involved products imported from China. Yes, that reminds me. Their malachite green fish. I forgot to add that to the list.
Ma Bole,
I’m an expat? LOL, what exactly is it that you think you know about me? Hilariously pitiful how you, like so many bashers of most ilk, make assumptions and jump to conclusions base on little to no information, evidence or analysis, other than conjectures and speculations about people and issues.
Ultimately me wee matey, you know diddly-squat about me and unfortunately for you, your tendency in presuming speaks volume as well as very little about your level of intellect or ability to reason.
Would it surprise you if I say I am a Putonghua native speaker, along with Cantonese and Minan Hua among others? Or how about that part of my heritage includes Hong Kong and have relatives and family properties in HK.
As for you being a “native” Mandarin speaker, LOL, who are you trying to kid. No native speaker who are truely native would refer to themselves as a Mandarin speaker. Ultimately, to quote Hamlet, me thinks thou doth protest too much in trying to “validate” your “credentials”. What a fool.
As for Hobson, LOL, you obviously suffer from an inability to merge and use ideas or think creatively, nevermind a one-dimensional intellectual approach, despite my reference to Bernard of Chartres together with Hobson’s book. Is Wikipedia the extent of your analytical ability? LOL! All hail the digital age of the internet where dumbing down is the norm and a substitute for robust intellectual rigour.
As for Tang poems, LOL, it’s clear you have no understanding of Chinese poetry or the Chinese language itself, whatever the dialect. Good luck trying to make Chinese poems “rhyme” or reading rhymes into Chinese poems since Chinese is a tonal language. You’ll at best end up with gobbledygook or at worst tearing your hair out. Uncroyable, que crétin!
Tang poems or Chinese poems in general for that matter do not “rhyme”, no matter which “dialect” of Chinese you read them in. In fact rhyming is pretty much irrelevant in Chinese/Tang poems. Instead it relies on rhythm and cadence based on the number of characters in each verse, with the verses usually in even numbers for structure.
And you call yourself a “native” Mandarin speaker. LOL, who was your Chinese teacher? Your supposed “wife” perhaps? Nevermind your understanding of English poetry mechanics, for you obviously do not know the difference between rhythm and rhymes. And you call me a hack? For shame. LOL, “native” Mandarin speaker indeed!
PS: Btw Putonghua does not translate as “common tongue”. You obviously still need to learn when to and when NOT to paraphrase Wiki. LOL!
Nyima (Your mother? LOL!)
Your naiveté is endearing, though unsurprising, considering your lack of knowledge about wider world affairs, and I suspect your immaturity.
You’ve obviously never heard of the Minamata disease or the Fujiya food scandal. Hmmm, how about the UK military’s complaints about the health and conditions of recruits during the Boer War caused by diseases brought about by pollution, consequent of late stage industrialization? Or that the UK invented the concentration camps during the same war?
Ever heard of Italian wine producers and resellers diluting and faking their wines with industrial alcohol thereby causing a number of deaths? How about French, Italian and other European and US truffle sellers passing off a specific Chinese fungi, which is seen in China as only fit to feed to pigs, as much more expensive black truffles to unsuspecting consumers? How about US and European tyre sellers selling used or “re-conditioned” tyres that are barely legal or roadworthy?
Now go and read more news other than just those within your immediate bubble of interests. Who knows, you might just then grow up an itsy bit more, fingers crossed, and depending on your level of intellect. LOL!
Good show. You must have been so busy doing all this research.
Wait. I’m not defending other wrongdoings. I’m half Chinese and I care most about Chinese affairs. Didn’t you even notice that? You weren’t reading properly — blinded by rage, I suppose. Stay cool and try not to swear. Try.
“Spare the rod and spoil the child.” Undue glorification is not a good thing.
Oh! Since you are so well read and learned and on top of things, perhaps you will be kind enough to remind me about Lin Juemin and his role in the revolution. I learnt about him in school but I’ve forgotten all the details. I’d be grateful if you could educate me. Thanks a lot.
China should free Liu Xiaobo and all other political dissidents. NOW.
And yes, perhaps Doc can also enlighten me on what rights the Consitution provides for the people of China. What does it say about freedom of expression, speech, etc?
“Article 35. Citizens of the People’s Republic of China enjoy freedom of speech, of the press, of assembly, of association, of procession and of demonstration.”
Excuse if I don’t offer much comment, I have to clean up after peeing myself laughing.
Thanks a lot, MAC.
What a joke indeed! Shame on those in power.
FREE LIU XIAOBO AND ALL POLITICAL DISSIDENTS NOW! You fascist pigs! Please don’t send what is half my mother country down the road of decadence any more. You have wasted 60 years of our history already. The way you treat people with dissenting political views is cruel and unwarranted.
Doc -
You spend way, way too much time thinking about me and others who’ve posted here. Don’t get me wrong – your comments are interesting. I enjoy reading them. Another, if you please.
In fact, Tang new-style regulated verse did rhyme. Indeed, Doc, rhyme was a defining characteristic of Tang new-style regulated verse. This is partly why it was called “new” and “regulated.” Much old-style poetry rhymed as well, though rhyme was not strictly required. As I said in an earlier post, the rhyme is often preserved in modern Cantonese.
As for accusing me of paraphrasing Wikipedia – now who’s making assumptions? Translating 普通话 as “common tongue” is perfectly reasonable, even idiomatic. I prefer it to “common speech,” “standard language,” or the ubiquitous “Mandarin.” One hardly need consult Wikipedia for such a trivial matter.
Anyone who uses “LOL” as often as you risks being regarded as an imbecile. It is very bad form. Why not throw in a “dude” or two while you’re at it.
No, come to think of it, it doesn’t surprise me that you’re a native speaker of 普通话. The character of your recent posts should have been a dead giveaway.
Defend Hobson all you like, Doc. Unlike China, it’s a free country. Even so, as I said before, Hobson isn’t even the best of his kind. That you recommend him says a thing or two about you.
Whether you agree with what is written in Charter08 or not (and I wonder how many of the commentators here have actually read it through?) to imprison a person for stating a point of view is self-evidently uncivilised, in my point of view. Freedom of speech etc is enshrined in the Chinese constitution passed by the CCP. The Party is therefore not only behaving as if uncivilised, but also hypocritical. To add to this charging him with subversion, really is a manifestation of perversion.
So there you have it. An uncivilised, hypocritical and perverted political party with power over one fifth of the world’s population. Pretty scary.
And hopefully unsustainable in the medium to long term.
Ma Bole
LOL, you’re right, my serious bad about the use of rhymes in Chinese poems. I guess that’s what comes from reading Chinese characters/poems in different dialects all at once. Besides I tend to focus on what is said rather than whether it rhymes or not.
As for thinking about people who’ve posted here, dude, you’re are the one who began by flinging accusations about who or what people are or are not. I usually try to stick to what is said, unless people get offensive, so pots and kettles? LOL.
As for my LOL alot, well that’s just my personality for you see I’m a happy go lucky sorta person with a cynical and satirical outlook on most things. And yes I do LOL that much in real life too, so psychoanalyse away. Spending too much time thinking about people posting here? LOL!
As for Hobson, maybe you might tell us WHY you disagree with him, instead of just saying he’s baaaaad (Orwell be proud). You see, rather than throwing the baby out with the bath water, I tend to judge a book on its details.
As for recommending Hobson, well I regard it as a suitable and easily accessible general primer and if you want something deeper, you might want to try “The Theft of History” & “The East is in the West”, Goody, Cambridge University Press or “The Renaissance Bazaar: From the Silk Road to Michelangelo”, Brotton, Oxford University Press. Or if you’re really adventurous, “Der Mythos vom Zivilisationsprozess”, Duerr, Suhrkamp Verlag, FaM.
Btw. I’m a native speaker of a few different languages and dialects, now go and consider what that means, LOL!
Nyima
Swearing? Qui? Moi? LOL!
“Spare the rod, spoil the child”? Wow, so you’re China’s mother now are you? LOL! What hubris! You’re half-Chinese? Bravo, you want a prize to go with that? LOL!
However, fundamentally, I think you misunderstood alot of what I said. I consider perspectives and I rather look at the process and the direction that China is taking rather than just the problems it has to deal with at each moment in time.
Frankly I don’t care whether it’s the CCP, the KMT or the DPP, so long as the results on the balance are positive. China bashing “Hongkies” can bitch all they want for I find poetic justice in that many HKers were equally dismissive of Mainlanders in the 70’s and 80’s (check out all the TVB shows from those eras, LOL).
As for Liu Xiaobao and Lin Juemin, ask yourself this, do the times create heroes or do heroes create the times(translated from the Cantonese)? As for “Democracy”, frankly China and the majority of its peoples have other more urgent priorities. Besides, there isn’t and neither ought there be a homogeneous approach to “Democracy” and I rather China takes its time and get it right rather than going down Russia’s route and waste 20 years just to take a step back to start all over again.
As for rights enshrined in the Chinese Constitution or any other consitution for that matter, no right is absolute in its exercise. For ex., freedom of speech is curtailed by libel, obscenity and security laws, freedom of religion is balanced by the need to protect vulnerable younsters among other concerns and the list goes on. So go and think long and hard about any alleged “freedoms” you think you might have. LOL!
Btw. research? Those issues and food scandals were merely off of my head, for no country is unique in that regard. People have been trying to cheat each other ever since the first trade was invented, so caveat emptor is all I can say. LOL!
Brilliant. Caveat emptor. Now here’s a self-proclaimed China supporter/lover who doesn’t care a bit about the wellness of the Chinese people. He’s saying: buy and eat what you like, you common folks; it’s your own responsibility.
So open your eyes, those who side with him. He is saying that too bad, Chinese consumers, the unsafe foods you happen to eat are your own responsibility. It’s got nothing to do with greedy entrepreneurs and the dysfunctioning regulatory system of the state, nor the greedy culture the leadership is spreading by putting money before human life.
He’s also saying that those in power are doing fine acting unconstitutionally. Be wary. If someone is always full of praises for you, even if you make gross mistakes, the place he wants you to end up in could very well be hell.
Oh, the direction the rulers are taking China — Green Dam and all. Actually, what good is a ruling party if it can’t stay in power without the help of Green Dam, Yellow Dam, Red Dam, etc. and escalated cruelty to political dissidents. Now here’s something to think about.
Spare me. Libel, etc. laws? Do laws exist in the eyes of the CCP leadership?
I have cut back on frivolous things to send stationery and clothing items to schools in rural China. I shan’t do that anymore.
The state spent 40m+ yuan on developing Green Dam. If they’ve got all that money to waste on acts of privacy encroachment, I don’t think I should curtail my own enjoyment to play a complicit part in their wasteful project spying on fellow Chinese.
Nyima
Wow! All those just from caveat emptor? Fascinating. Pray tell where did I say that I do not care about people’s wellbeing? You sure do like to put words into other people’s mouth or is that simply your over-fertile imagination leading you to exaggerate and extrapolate all sorts of conjuring unto opinions you disagree with? Wow! Talk about attempt at character assassination.
You’ve obviously missed out on what I said about balance in the preceding sentence. Besides since reforms and the breaking of the iron rice bowl, people, whether acting as both consumers or producers, have to learn to be responsible, by hook or by crook. The alternative is a return to the State dominating all aspects and minutiae of daily life.
The irony is that from all your bitching, I get the impression that this is what you in fact yearn for. It is a phenomenon that I’ve often come across in so called “developed” societies where the social-economic policies are increasingly left-leaning and where the people look increasingly to the state to solve their problems in return for their votes. People ultimately devolve all manner of personal responsibilities to the state, which in turn becomes increasingly nanny-like in response.
Is that what you’re really pining for? The “order” of a regimented state where there are no uncertainties and the state that makes all your decisions and solves all your problems. Well we sure know how well that turned out. And you wanted freedom and democracy? Well guess what? “Freedom” means that those determined to cheat will have the latitude to inevitably find the ways and the means to do so, nevermind allowing people the simple opportunity to screw up and thereby learn from their mistakes, whether as governments, as producers or as consumers. Whether the country is “developed” or developing. Frankly, we’ll probably see much more of such incidents as well as social unrest etc. before things improve. It’s call growing pains and are par of the course when any society restructure itself.
Finally, if you want to be charitable, do it for the sake of the cause because it is worthwhile in and of itself, not because of other people’s or the government’s shortcomings. The world is full of shortcomings and if that is your motivation, you’ll probably suffer an aneurysm sooner or later and like so many HK people go through life with a briefcase full of assorted pharmacology.
In end, yes it is each individual’s responsibility to buy and to eat what they like for in the “free” society that you are espousing that is your decision to make. Ultimately, the road to and of “freedom” and democracy is messy and it is chaotic. It means both rights, but crucially also responsibilities. While we all know that you claim to be capable of handling your “rights”, you need to ask yourself whether you are sure that you can handle the responsibilities as well? LOL!
I’m afraid I don’t understand what you’re trying to get at. Your comments are very long and they go round and round. Maybe my English is poor.
I was on Liu Xiaobo and basic human rights and freedoms and rule of law in China.
I shan’t waste my time here any more, as I see Communist tactic – shifting the focus.
Nyima
Ehh, I believe it was YOU who raised the issue of defective/fake products in this thread about Liu Xiaobo.
Sigh… the pitiful attention span and intellectual depth of a gnat.
Okay, but the focus was not on the defective things themselves but the reason why so many of them were there – a regime who by exemplar and in words teaches money comes before everything else, leading to widespread corruption, and a breakdown in the rule of law. Indeed, the regime itself bypasses the Constitution whenever it suits them to do so.
I asked you about the Constitution but you never replied to that. Instead you rambled on and on about substandard goods.
So that this brutal regime can stay in power, basic human rights and freedoms are taken away from the people. Brave critics like Liu Xiaobo are harrassed, intimidated, hounded, tortured, jailed, etc. Funny to think how fragile the regime actually is in that they fear opposition from their own people, from an unarmed scholar like Liu Xiaobo.
Nyima
Ehhh… Dude, babe (drool, drool, slobber, slobber) or whatever indeterminant sex/gender you are, as expected from your level of reasoning, you’re going around in circles, both topic and reasoning-wise.
Actually, I did talked about the Chinese constitution and constitutions in general, as well as jurisprudence. It’s obvious that either you can’t read or do not/cannot think about what you’ve just read. Go read the postings again LOL!
Legally speaking, you may want to consider the purpose of a constitution, rather than just the content of a constitution. Consider also why there are amendments to consitutions as well as volumes and volumes of additional secular and religious laws, rules, codes of conduct and other informal social rules and etiquette when in an ideal world any given nation’s constituion ought to be enough.
You may also want to consider the need and the role of setting priorities from both an individual and national perspective. As for “the regime” or any other government for that matter, ask yourself who and what is it exactly? Is it a monolithic entity or is it made of many individuals? Do they all have identical motivations and thought process?
As for Liu Xiaobo, while I generally do not disagree with his message, where he unfortunately failed was on his delivery, which in many instances, even outside of politics, is as important if not more so than the message itself, c’est la vie, n’est pas?. That is so particularly in this juncture of China’s political, social and economic development, which some in mainland and outside of China consider as being too slow, while others think it’s too fast.
In fact, his and that of Charter 08’s criticism and demands are nothing new, but are oft repeated by sections of China’s government and establishment. So the question is why was he singled out, what marks him as different? Why did some past demands for reforms succeeded and others failed?
While I commend your idealism, it is useless when unaccompanied by knowledge, reason, experience or temperament. When such imbalance is taken to extreme for whatever reasons, justified or not, the results are TAM and countless other student or dissident movements and uprisings throughout human history, irrespective of cultures or nationalities, whether the outcome is peaceful or not.
Ultimately, you need to widen both your horizon and your persepctive some more. To that effect, you may want to check out the following books, “An Introduction to Law”, Phil Harris (an introductory book on the common law legal system and jurisprudence since you may have a HK connection) or “The Passions of Law”, edited by Susuan A. Bandes (basically a reader about the interplay between jurisprudence and human emotions and the tension between reason and emotions).
Go back and re-read my comments in their entirety and if you repeat yourself or act like a knucklehead or a bimbo again, I just might swear at you in half a dozen or so languages and dialects. And like Umberto Eco’s Salvatore, it ain’t going to be pretty. Now go find out who and what Salvatore is all about, LOL!!!
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