Tao Weishuo (陶韡烁) Defends his Statement: “All Chinese People Have Internet Freedom”
Following President Obama’s townhall meeting with students in Shanghai, during which Obama spoke out against Internet censorship, a student participant from Fudan University, Tao Weishuo (陶韡烁), was quoted in the Washington Post as saying, “I strongly disagree with what Obama said about the Internet firewall… I think all Chinese people have Internet freedom – we can speak out freely on the Internet about current social affairs.” Tao’s comments generated a wave of criticism on the Chinese Internet as netizens slammed Tao for not speaking the truth about the situation in China.
Facing the onslaught of criticism, Tao has written a response to defend his position and posted it in Fudan University’s online forum (Already being deleted). Since it is relatively rare for young Chinese holding pro-government views to engage in public debate online with their critics, CDT translated portions of his post:
In this post, Tao presents his version of events surrounding the Washington Post interview. He then continues:
下面来谈谈我当时的想法：
1、我想首先问一下所有骂我的人们，你们看直播了吗？你们看到奥巴马怎么会问这个问题的吗？然我这个坐在第二排的人来告诉你，当时奥巴马回答上一个问题回答到一半时，一个美国特工上演讲台递给奥巴马一张纸条，随后奥巴马停止了点中国学生，而是告诉大家我们的洪博培大使要代表美国的网友提一个问题。洪博培随后就问了这个关于防火墙的精心挑选的问题，然后我们的奥巴马总统便洋洋洒洒的开始“教育”起中国的年轻人和中国政府来。听到这个回答之后的当时，我就特想直接站起来回应奥巴马，但是看到两个像山一样的保镖都盯着我，我就没有这么做。另我十分遗憾的是，之后的提问学生都没有就这个问题反刺一下总统。就这样和谐的结束了对话。
Let me talk about my thoughts at that time:
1. I want to first ask all those who are attacking me, have you seen the event on the live broadcast? Have you seen how Obama came to be asked this question? Let me, a person who was sitting in the second row, tell you: When Obama was in the middle of answering the previous question, a US special agent came up to the stage, and handed a note to Obama. Then Obama stopped taking questions from Chinese students, but told everyone that Ambassador Huntsman will ask a question on behalf of American netizens. [Translator's note: The question asked of Obama and presented by Ambassador Huntsman was in fact posed by a Chinese netizen and was posted through a special web page set up by the U.S. State Department for this occasion.] Huntsman then asked this deliberately selected question about the Firewall, then President Obama started lecturing Chinese youth and the Chinese government at length. At that very moment when I heard this, I was compelled to stand up to respond to Obama directly, but I saw two security guards, as large as a mountain, staring at me, so I did not do so. Regretfully, students who asked questions after this did not rebut the President on this question. The dialogue ended harmoniously.
2、其实，我之后就已经明白如果我接受采访会怎么说。我认为首要的问题是，我们的国家、中国人、中国青年人不能随随便便被一个外国元首想怎么教育就怎么教育，而没有一点反应。面对国外的媒体，首先要传达的是这个信息。我当然知道我们的国家还有这样那样的不足甚至坏处，当然知道你们质疑我的问题都是真实情况，但是，如果你遇到外国记者你会如何选择？如果这个回答是我们的zhurongji总理说的你会骂他是NC吗？要让外国人知道我们对自己国家的爱护，这是我的第一信念。中国，我们自己可以批评、可以骂，但不能让外国人随便抹黑、攻击。
所以，我从来就看不起那些跑到国外说中国哪里不好、哪里不好的人，那些伸手向美国民主基金会和有关部门要钱的人。
2. As a matter of fact, I already knew what I would say after this, if I was interviewed. I think the most important issue is, our country, Chinese people and Chinese youth should not be lectured by a foreign leader as he pleases in such an arbitrary manner, and without any reaction. In front of foreign media, the first message to be transmitted is this one. I of course know that our country has this and that fault, and can even be wrong; of course the points you raised in your criticisms of me represent the real situation. But, if you meet a foreign journalist, what action will you choose? If the same answer came out from our Premier Zhu Rongji, would you also call him “brain damaged”? Let foreigners know how much we love and protect our own country, this is my first belief. China, we can criticize ourselves, we can curse it, but cannot let foreigners arbitarily demonize and attack it.
Therefore, I always look down on those people who went to foreign countries to say China has this and that wrong, those who ask money from National Endowment for Democracy Foundation and other agencies.
3、我为什么要当这个出头鸟呢？我怎么看待现在的结果和下场呢。的确在400多个参与这个活动的学生中，可能我的表达是唯一受到攻击的。其他人大概都没有这样说吧，更没有透露自己的真实姓名。但是我觉得，如果自己被选到，自己就有责任来这样表达青年人的观点至少是我这个青年人的观点。而且，我不想再被外媒弄成什么闪烁其词的“不愿透露姓名的中国学生”，这样反而更不好，更任由他们胡说八道了。我料到他们会歪曲或者节选我们的声音，但是这样至少还有人能说出真相，这反而能让更多人认识到敌我斗争的复杂性和艰巨性。我当然不会天真的认为我讲的全部是实话，但也不是谎话。
3. Why do I want to stick my neck out? How do I see the current consequences and result? Indeed among the 400 students who participated in this event, I probably am the only one being attacked. Others may not say what I have said, nor have they revealed their real names. But I feel, since I have been selected, then I have a responsibility to express the views of the youth, at least my own views as a youth. Also, I do not want to be quoted by foreign media as a “Chinese student who is unwilling to disclose his name,” that’s even worse, and will aid their nonsense report even more. I expected that they will distort or selectively choose our voices, but at least someone has to tell the truth; this can make more people realize the complexity and challenge of the struggle between us and our enemies. I of course am not that naive to believe that all I have said is true, but they are not lies either.
华盛顿邮报是怎样的报纸呢？很多人不会不知道吧？他在报我的回答之前的一段写到，Even the students who posed questions to Obama were pre-selected, and most appeared to be members of the Chinese Communist Party Youth League. 同学们，骂我的同学们，不是团员的请举手。我相信，要在复旦、交大、上外、同济等8所名校中找齐500个不是团员的听众肯定要比登天还难。大家为什么愿意相信华盛顿邮报这样的报纸对中国的报道，而不愿意为一个相信一个你身边的同学呢？
What kind of paper is the Washington Post? Not many people really do not know, right? The reporter wrote the following paragraph before my quote “Even the students who posed questions to Obama were pre-selected, and most appeared to be members of the Chinese Communist Party Youth League.”
My fellow students, my fellow students who attack me, please raise your hand if you are not a member of the Communist Youth League. I believe, it is nearly impossible to find 500 non-Communist Youth League member students in the eight outstanding universities such as Fudan, Jiatong University, Shanghai Foreign Language University and Tongji University. Why does everyone want to believe a China story reported in a newspaper like the Washington Post, instead of believing [me] your fellow student right next to you?
如果，我不这样回答，顺着奥巴马说，华盛顿邮报会怎么写？会抓住此更加大作文章吧。如果没有人去回答这个问题，那么他们又会怎样写？会写所有中国青年学生对这个问题静若寒蝉。
If I did not answer this way, and agreed with Obama, what will the Washington Post reporter write? WIll they make it even a bigger issue by exaggerating it? If no one answers this question, what they will write then? They will write that all Chinese young students are silenced on this question.
在我们这个古老而伟大的国家重新崛起的过程中，来自内部和外部的批评是少不了的，在他发展和与外部世界的偏见斗争的过程中，总有一些人要被牺牲，无论是死于外战还是死于同胞的口水。如果那个人会是我，我也将学所有的前辈，义无反顾。如果同样的事情再发生一次，我还是会同样全面的回答记者。
这就是我，一个复旦人，一个中国共产党党员的选择
In the process of our ancient and great country rising again to the world, there will be no lack of criticism from inside and out. In the process of our country developing and fighting with external bias perspectives, someone will be sacrificed. If that person is me, I will follow those who went before me, and devote myself to justice without hesitation. If the same situation replays again, I will give the reporter the same comprehensive answer.
This is the choice made by me, a man of Fudan, a member of the Chinese Communist Party.
Since the Washington Post report, Tao Weishuo had been given a new moniker by the twittersphere: “Internet Freedom Man (网络自由男).” Some bloggers also dug up past quotes Tao has given to Chinese media, translated by CDT:
Tao Weishuo, graduate student at the School of International Relations at Fudan University, in news reports over the years
2004
Tao Weishuo, a student in Fudan University’s International Politics department, points out that the United States has consistently held a double standard in regards to human rights. In fact, from Panama to Kosovo, U.S. bombings have resulted in a large number of civilian casualties, and [America] has seriously trampled on local people’s fundamental rights to survival and development.2009
Tao Weishuo, a master’s degree student from Fudan University’s International Politics department, expressed that the CCP general secretary’s speech clearly illustrated that today’s youth ought to develop themselves at the level of the individual before joining with the country down its excellent route to prosperous development. [He also noted] that the address was an important document in guiding his country’s youth movement. As graduate students in the new era, we ought to aim for higher goals and strive to be world-class. We must work diligently, be assiduous innovators, and unrelentingly promote the development of our country’s scientific education.2009
Fudan University graduate student, counselor of the 0909 undergraduate class, told reporters that after the outbreak of the overseas AH1N1 flu, [his] school immediately launched a broad educational campaign asking students to pay attention to disease prevention and hygiene, and to immediately report any abnormal [symptoms] to teachers and campus authorities. Currently, campus student life is normal, which includes study abroad and foreign exchange students and teachers. There has been no panic.2009
Tao Weishuo, international relations and public affairs student at Fudan University:
I think out of Obama’s entire speech, including the Q&A session afterwards, the part that left me with the deepest impression was that Sino-American relations are already far outside the scope of bilateral relations. Rather, China and America are a pair on the global stage with remarkably strong influence. [I noted this] particularly during Obama’s response to the question of what he would like to take away from China. He mentioned that as regards carbon emissions reduction, all countries look to how China and America are exercising their leadership. Also very interesting is that he said that if China and America do not discuss the problem, then other countries may say that China and America are not taking the carbon emissions reduction question seriously. So what I wish to say is that [what Obama said] represents that America has practically already admitted to China’s status as a global leader.
Update: Here is the item of Tao Weishuo on Hudongbaike, a Chinese version of WIkipedia-like website.
POSTED COMMENTS: 51 Responses
There isn’t much difference in freedoms of all kinds between the U.S. and the PRC once you start looking at history and bringing it into persepective if you compare similar moments in development. Ask the American Indians, African-Americans, American leftists, American labor organizers; American women; American anti-war activists. J. Edgar Hoover and Senator McCarthy would have been very comfortable operating in either Stalin’s Soviet Union or similar repressive times in China. There’s a lot of faux “freedom” in the U.S. like the “freedom” to select from 27 brands of toothpaste; the “freedom” to vote either Democratic or Republican; the “freedom” to watch either CNN or Fox. Narrowly defined choices are not evidence of freedom.
Communism itself is a human rights movement. Without communism, China might still be occupied by Japanes or other Western powers. You will never hear Obama or American main stream media talk about human rights of the Palestinian people because no one in America dare to criticize Israel. There is censorship or self-censorship in American media regarding Israel. For example, there is no discussion about the Goldstone Report in the main stream media. Some China’s concerns about freedom of speech is legitimate. For example, the media’s negative influence on violent crimes, child abuse, dyfunctional family, etc. in America might be the consideration of China.
This is a human rights site. What is the point of moderating people’s speech?
Hu Jintao is certainly much much much better than George W. Bush, which means the Chinese system is not that disadvantageous to the US system.
Moderation is done to filter out spam.
With all due respect, stevelaudig, there are restraints on expression, and then there are restraints on expression.
I’m no flag waving xenophobe. Far from it.
But I have to say that it is not sufficient to point out a similar phenomenon in two places and then say they are the same.
The Chinese government invests a lot of money and manpower into surveying, policing, and deleting content from the Internet. That is to say, China operates a state-funded, legislated technological architecture designed specifically to limit what information circulates on the Internet. No such system exists in the US, nor in any other country committed by law to free speech.
Honest Chinese people will freely admit this. It doesn’t mean they live lives of agony and darkness. China isn’t hell on earth because facebook is blocked.
But the restrictions that Chinese people face shouldn’t be trivialized through trite comparisons to the US case. Sure, media in capitalist countries present obstacles to the flow of information. This is well documented and not worth denying. But there is a qualitative difference with what you experience in China.
Mr. Tao Weishuo needs to see not only the “FACTS” but also the Truth and the Truth is that Our People are not given access to Information. If our government is to care for all of us then It should give us the freedom to choose and look for information ourselves not Force Feed it into our throat. The Communist style of Authoritarian like spreading propaganda to public no longer works in 21st Century.
If you call yourselve a True Chinese then you will promote Freedom over Authoriatarian rule. You will listen and work with the citizen instead of following Party’s line and protecting Party’s Interest over Genuine interst of People.
you know, that’s so true. i’m a chinese citizen and when using internet in both china and the u.s. i truly do not see a difference.
do u.s. citizens check the al-qaeda daily or the communist party of the united states website all day on the internet then complain when it’s blocked? no, they have much better things to do like gaming and research. the same thing applies in china. this man is a brave individual who told the CIA psychops agents and traitors straight up what’s the real deal.
The first time I read this article on CDT I was thinking what translated here doesn’t look like a defending of his statement. Then I clicked on the original Chinese article I find out CDT (intentionally?) didn’t translate the first part of Tao’s post, which is more revelant to the post title.
WSJ twisted his words in some way. He didn’t say “I strongly disagree …” but “I think President Obama does not learn a lot of China. I don’t aggree with him. I think nowadays we can experess ourselves more freely on the website and also criticize our government policy on the governments’ web” in English.
Though I disagree with him on the “all Chinese people have Internet freedom” statement, I think everyone should be able to express their opinions freely. What disgusted me more are the mob-like so called “liberal fighters” who think they have moral high ground and attack people of different ideas with filthy nicknames. People should calm down and listen from different corners.
in my last comment I mean Washinton Post. my bad for not double-checking carefully before submit.
You really have to wonder about this person who can’t stop thinking about America and what Americans think of China blah blah blah. Instead of worrying about what foreigners say, why doesn’t he think about helping Chinese people. If Americans want to care about China, what’s the problem.
I know some Americans may be afraid of China’s rise, and some Americans may feel superior, but why think about those people? If someone has a criticism of something, why not take it like a man instead of making a total fool of yourself by thinking that anyone could possibly believe that the internet is free in China?
CCP would love if everyone would believe this guy and be fooled by the lie, then they could continue lying to and fooling the Chinese population, move into other countries with their xinhua propaganda lies and lie and fool everyone. I am glad the questions were asked. You really gotta wonder about someone who hates the truth, especially when it is an attempt to let their own people have access to information to educate themselves.
Besides, look at the picture, you can tell he is a fabicated being, constructed by the glory of scientific education in order to take over the role of big liar when the current liars are too weak…
ok, that was mean, it was just a joke, cause in this picture, he looks like plastic he he he
According to today’s New York Times, 87% Chinese people are happy with their country while only 30% of American are happy with the US. The Chinese government has done something right. Anyone can join the communist party if he or she wants to and becomes a leader in China. There are a certain democratic element in the communist party system, which is failed to be understood by the West. Some human rights activists view China in one dimension way and fail to appreciate how far China has traveled in such a short time. Yes, regetably, the party might have killed up to 1000 democracy demonstrators in Tienanmen Square. But, how many Iraqis had died and will die due to the US invasion of Iraq? How many millions of Palestinians still do not have their statehood because of Israel and US policy. So, it is easy to copycat the tone of the US and curse China. There are much problems in the US that China does not have yet. Pure freedom may not be the most wise approach to society.
Some people insult the Chinese student here because what he says do not fit their view of China (due to American propaganda). Calling him names certainly makes the rude person inferior. I advice these people to go to China and experience China first hand before making any judgement. Chinese people can travel to US freely. There are about 100,000 Chinese students coming to US every year. If Chinese government is really afraid of open society, that would not happen. Their concerns are stability, stability, stability so that China would not have turmoils of the 60’s. Their focus on economy is justified when the per capita of China is so low. They do not want to be distracted by frivolous political movements. One also needs know some so called human rights activists wre or are supported by the CIA (Dalai Lama is an example). Given China’s history with the West, one should not blame them for being cautious. Any other approach would be unwise. Just want to note that the US still sell arms to Taiwan, so would you trust the US completely if you were a Chinese? Here is a saying I came up with: in the US, there is a Constitution, and, then there is the CIA. Sometimes, it is hard to know what one is dealing with.
Another point, freedom of choice is more important than freedom of speech because Chinese might CHOOSE not have freedom of speech. The claim that freedom of speech is an universal right is presumptuous. As per capita of China increases their people’s freedom of speech will certainly increase. One has to eat first.
(Let me prove there is censorship in America. I post the following on the Huffington Post. It was completely censored except the last paragraph. If this human rights site want to experience censorship, try to have a section for the Middle East Human Rights and see what will happen. You will be surprised! So, it might be better to focus on human rights in America first; otherwise, China will say why you are teaching us.)
Obama needs to be bold regarding the Middle East and should not be intimidated by Israel and its political power in the US. It is time to side with the Arab because they are indeed the oppressed. Remember Moses in the old testament, Obama could deliver the Palestinian people this time. Basically, it is time to support the Palestinian people’s right of self-determination: declare independence with the recognition of the UN (and the US) based on Westbank, Gaza, and East Jerusalem. Force Israe first legally and then economically and even militarily (peace keeping) to retreat behind the 67 Green Line. This way, Obama will kill two birds with one stone. The Arab terrorism against the US will disappear and the Arab will be forever friends of the US. Sure, Israel will be unhapy about the outcome, but it has to accepte it because the whole world is against them on this issue. The only support they have is the US, now it is not there any more. Israel is the true Nazi in the world right now. It talks about attacking Iran simply because some Iranian leaders’ boasting rhetorics. If Obama sides with the Arab, the world peace is in sight. Don’t be afraid of pro-Israel’s political power. Obama will have rest of Americans’ support.
Just one thing Obama needs to be careful. Basically, he needs to have the Republican behind this approach as well because otherwise pro-Israelis would join the Republican to defeat Obama in the next election. Obama needs to go to the American people directly and explain to them the importance of the peace in the Middle East.
One observation: the pro-Israel faction wants to try the terrorists in New York for the following reasons: (1) it will be a public display how bad Arab Muslims are; (2) if terrorists attack the US becaue of it, it will put a wedge between the US and the Arab world. This way, they defeat two giants with one stone. That is why it is very important Obama makes it clear he will stand by the oppressed Palestinian people.
One has to understand Judaism in order to understand Israel. Judaism believes they are the Chosen People, so they have to defeat everyone else: Muslims, Christians, Hindus, Atheists, etc. That is why there are so many wars between everyone else. Israel wants to defeat everyone else by making everyone else against each other.
[...] 19, 2009 von mrpresident China Digital Times berichtet über die Debatte in chinesischen Internetforen, welche der stramme Nachwuchskommunist Tao Weishuo ausgelöst hat. Dieser hatte nach dem insgesamt [...]
Stevelaudig, please keep you misguided faux-liberal magnanimity for better use elsewhere. As a Bay Area democrat born and raised in Taiwan, I cannot comprehend the befuddled tolerance for the Chinese regime on the part of some on the left. Apparently the Chinese leadership itself prefers the 27-toothpaste American freedom to that of being 跨省追捕， “interstate arrest” for posting about illegal land seizures about one’s tiny hometown in the metropolis of Shanghai. A comically large number of the leadership’s children and grandchildren are sent to the US and Europe. The US has a spotty history, hell yeah. So let’s not take that history and use it as a pretext to yet commit more errors!
And spare us the shallow historical comparison arguments. Do you have any sense of the relative freedom of press and speech during the Republican period versus now? In the 30’s there were privately owned papers, for one thing.M Moreover, no foreigner has the right to tell China’s 300 million netizens that they should succumb to censorship because “that’s the stage of development you are at.” Why are they able to build chips and routers using the latest technology, get sold the latest medical imaging equipment (because US companies clamor for them to do so), and not be entitled to the same freedom as everyone else?
BiggerPicture:
Your so called “Proof” fails to justify the Authoritarian style of Censorship that is Widely enforced in China.
Your Rhetoric does nothing but Parrots CCP’s party line.
There is no justification for Suppression by saying others have done it and are doing it.
Finally, please you are making a fool out of yourself when you are comparing Censorship in China w/ US.
China has 1 Single Party.
It enforces Censorship in every are people’s lives to Protect its own power interest.
There is Simply No Justification for current Repression.
–One has to eat first.
BiggerPicture, perhaps you might want to avail yourself of your curbed American freedom and look up “Great Leap Forward.” More than one million people were purged and sent to labor camps for criticizing the government during the Anti-Rightist Campaign. As a result, no one dared speak up against the insane agricultural policy, the forced communization, the mandatory steel-making and dam construction which let crops rot in the fields, and the forced transfer of food which emptied the granaries. The economic system careened out of control and starved 10-30 million peasants.
It turns out that freedom of speech can protect you from starvation. The Chinese became so poor in the years of 1749-1976 because of the lack of political freedom. For people in the West to laud the Chinese Communist Party for lifting millions out of poverty subsequently is not unlike complimenting the Fort Hood killer for rushing over to bandage his victims.
Dave Zhou，说的好。作为一个美国自由主义者， 我对这些替共产党辩护的左派，真是无言。
BiggerPicture，who, pray, was responsible for the turmoil during the 60s? The Party itself, with its cult of personality, its ruthless machinery of repression, and the need to divert attention so that it is not held responsible for the terrible tragedies of the Great Leap Forward.
I lived in Beijing for three years. As a native Chinese speaker and reader I dare say I have more cultural access than you do. You might want to walk to the back streets, 胡同里多溜溜，understand the situation on the ground, before you impose your insulting imperialism-lite on the poor Chinese. The last thing they need is some ill-informed foreigner who, eager-puppy, wants to show their cultural tolerance at their expense. I know I cannot represent the exploited workers in the South, World Shanghai Expo 2010 refugees whose houses were torn down without compensation, and thousands of women like 严晓玲,the reporting of whose gang rape and murder by seven public security thugs was classified a “state secret” and whose sympathizers just went to trial for posting her story on the Internet.
Neither can you.
Hey, David Zhou and Nutmeg, as long as 87% of Chinese people are happy, who care what system they are in. Japan has an Emperor; Britain has a Queen. It is OK there is only one party for now if they can make people happy. I am glad the students did not take over China during the Tienanmen Square incidence, they could really ruined China. I heard some of the students were dreaming that after their demonstration, they would be granted the premiers of China. I trust those old guards who had devoted their life to China a lot more than those opportunists. I would give people lot more credits if they fight for human rights in their own country because when they fight for another country’s human rights there is nothing to lose (especially if they are paid by some fault finding sponsors). If you live in America, fight against human rights violations here. There are plenty of them: Israel, US agression against others, etc.
There is no point of talking about the 60’s in China. Now, the situation is entirely different.
The main thing about China is: per capita. Everything else will follow.
“BiggerPicture”
Well Tibetans are Struggling for Freedom, from CCP’s hardline policies in their homeland. And yes, i’m not just talking about TAR, i’m talking about Province of Amdo and vast area of Kham that the CCP sneekingly annexed into Sichuan and Qinghai province and called them Chinese province.
Yes, you are reading this correctly. Not just Tibetans, but People all over China are strugglying for freedom, Freedom that you do not want to give it them for the sake of “harmonous society” or “Nation unity” that the CCP uses as an excuse and hides behind.
When you support a brutal Regime, you are just as GUILTY as they are.
“For people in the West to laud the Chinese Communist Party for lifting millions out of poverty subsequently is not unlike complimenting the Fort Hood killer for rushing over to bandage his victims.”
People saying this seemed to treat CCP as a single person who never dies and never changes. But the fact is that CCP has changed a lot. CCP that starved thousands in the past is not the CCP who is lifting thousands out of poverty.
There were famines well before CCP came into existence. There were thousands of people who died of famines throught the human history. CCP could have done better to ease the famine. CCP today is much improved than CCP 50 years ago. It’s a fact, truth. No matter whatever you say, you have to admit it.
Dave Zhou,
Most Chinese seeking freedom will not allow Tibetans to have their freedom to split from China. So how do you give freedom to some of the people without offending others. You are not in the thick of governing a country and keep a vast country together so you can say whatever that please you.
I am not saying CCP is doing everything right; no government can do everything right. But CCP is trying to improve the livelihood of Chinese people and they are trying to do it in a way that is not a copy of the western politics, not a copy of its failed past politics. China will gradually become more open and people will enjoy more freedom, but we don’t and can’t afford Soviet’s type of shock therapy. If we do that, China will cease to exist and chaos will ensue. It has occurred before and Chinese people probably will do that again if not kept under control. Don’t blame CCP for everything, just blame Chinese people, CCP members are from Chinese people. So if you would, just say that the ugly Chinese deserve CCP’s
governess, be it good or bad. Please remember, CCP is not from out space; CCP is not a group of white people; CCP is not a group of Japanese; CCP is a group of Chinese. Wake up!
Essentially.. what he’s saying is that only Chinese people can criticize ourselves, if non-Chinese people point out the same criticisms, it’s “demonization”, “slander” and “bias”.
Seriously, I was born in Hong Kong and when I look north to the mainland, it’s like everyone has the mentality of an emotionally insecure teenager. I love China, but you guys need to grow up. Not everyone who disagrees is a hanjian, not every negative comment on the internet is written by a CIA agent. In fact, China and Russia are the only countries I know that cares enough about “internet sentiment” to plant online opinions.
Obama isn’t “lecturing”, Reagan and Bush back in the days, THAT was lecturing. This is nothing. Of course the questions were preselected and asked by the ambassador. No head of state would be willing to take open questions under so much international media attention.
And about America’s human rights abuses, sure, they exist. But what does that have to do with China? It seems like the first thing anyone does against criticism these days is try to point out something similar in another country. Let me tell you what, I don’t care what happens in other countries, I care about what happens in CHINA. Just because someone else is cruel or evil doesn’t mean we should be. If you want to defend our policies then stand up and speak with reason, because “they’re doing it too!” is not a compelling argument.
BiggerBiggerPicture (BBP) and others make some mistakes that I would like to respectfully point out.
Some, like Tan, seem to get angry because people attack the CCP. They point out that the CCP has done many good things. I agree, it has. But what is the conclusion to draw from that: that no one should be allowed to criticize the CCP for anything? The US has done good things too. Should that prevent others from criticizing the US? Of course not. Criticism is part of any healthy society.
There are others, like xyz, who says that there is no difference in the amount of freedom of expression in China and the US or other countries. Anyone who reads this wonderful site knows this is wrong. Ask Ran Yunfei. Ask Tan Xiaozhao. Why are their blogs eliminated time after time? Read their essays. They are thoughtful, beautiful and deserve to be heard.
BBP then makes the point that the Chinese are happy with their government and the economy is growing, so the lack of freedom of expression doesn’t matter or will inevitably get better. But this is not true either. From 1850-1920, Japan grew economically very fast and its people were happy about their government. Germans, too, liked Hitler because he brought them out of poverty and unemployment. But terrible things can happen if a government puts its people in jail because they spoke their conscience, and then lavishly awards people who obey the government no matter what.
Of course, I do not believe that China is going to become like Germany and Japan. But I do believe that it is in China’s interests to give greater freedoms to its people. If China wishes to maximize its influence in the world, it has to do more than maximize its wealth — it has to maximize the trust the world has in it. And the way to improve that trust is to show that its people are free, that it is not like Nazi Germany or Tojo’s Japan, that it can handle criticism, that it has a vigorous internal debate about right and wrong and doesn’t imprison or shut up honest, good people who disagree.
In modern history, no authoritarian, repressive nation has stayed strong. They either explode (pre-war Japan, Germany) or they give full freedom to their people (Europe, US, Korea, Taiwan, post-war Japan). The world and many Chinese people hope for the latter.
Here is the situation. There is a man, 40 years of age, who is a serial killer, rapist, and bank rober. And, there is a five years old boy who accidentally took a pencil home. And, there are 500 human rights activists who ignore the 40 years old saying this guy has a good political system, we have nothing against him. But, the little boy is a communist and has violated human rights. We need to put him to time out, in solidary confinement, and give him a serious spanking. The 40 years old is like the US (invasion other countries, killing thousands of people, abuse prisoners, interfere with other countries internal afairs, has high crime rate, has plenty of child abuse, has many dyfuctional families, support imperialistic Israel, its mainstream media are in the hands of an exclusive people, produced leaders (some of them are war criminals) like Bush, Cheney, Rumfeld, Rush Limbough, and Fox News). And, these 500 human rights activists do not see anything wrong with this 40 years old and see everything with the 5 years old. Does this make sense? Some of the 500 hundreds human rights activists are actually paid by the 40 years old to harass the 5 years old.
The problem is these human rights activists actually help to damage the image of China. And, as the consequence, there will be less understanding of China in the West. It will damage the business and cultural inetersts of China and slow down its development thus its human rights development.
The right approach is to point the main fact that the Chinese government has doon a good job in serving its people, but there are areas to be improved.
The one-dimensional approach to human rights is misguided.
There are good things about America too, but they are in the area of human rights. If you live in America and try to lecture China about human rights from the American point of view, there is something wrong with you.
Once again, communism’s (or socialism)intention is to improve human rights, and it has done some good things in the area as well.
Without a strong communist party, China might be ruled by war lords, organized criminals (mafias in America are still quite active, result of freedom?), and foreign invaders.
Until Taiwan reunited with China, any country that sells arms to Taiwan cannot be trusted because it undermines the basic security of China. I hope these 500 human rights activists got this. Obama’s smile does not mean anything until this issue is resolved.
(correction) There are good things about America too, but they are NOT in the area of human rights. Not yet. If you live in America and try to lecture China about human rights from the American point of view, there is something wrong with you.
Freedom does not mean separation.
Freedom means peoples right to live their lives without such harsh Government intrusion.
When it homes to Human Rights, The WHOLE WORLD has the right to point fingers, to judge, to comment, to raise awareness, to help the oppressed people.
To Yi,
I am not against criticizing CCP. I want people to go a step further, criticizing Chinese people. After all, CCP is resting on the foundation of the Chinese people.
We all know some of the finger-pointers will do when they are promoted to some of the CCP positions; they will do exactly what some of the current CCP leaders do. So don’t single out CCP, go to the root of the problem, the ugliness of Chinese just as Mr. Bao Yang has pointed out in his famous book “the ugly Chinese”.
M. Leung is reasonable.
Bigger,
sorry to lecture, defame, and be biased against you (joke), but it seems you are educated from within the confines of the great firewall culture. It really does seem that way. Because of the existence of the 50 cent party who are paid to convince people online of the party line (which seems to be in line with yours), it is hard to take you seriously. If the CCP had not spent so much of the Chinese people’s’ resources on the effort to shape the Chinese peoples’ thinking in order to bolster itself in power, then people might take these opinions more seriously, but since the truth is not a priority under this regime, there are a mix of people paid to spread lies and people who believe them and spread them.
Carryanne,
Think in the shoes of the CCP, if the Chinese people are as well-informed as the Americans, what will happen? If Chinese people enjoy the same level of freedom as the Americans what will happen? For one thing, the crime rate will be sky high and people will start shooing each other whenever there is a serious dispute. In my view, Chinese people can’t enjoy the same level of freedom as the Americans before the rule of law is firmly established. Do you know what China looked like when people got a lot of freedom? They smoked Opium; they fought civil wars; they divided China into many sub-countries.
Again looking at those Chinese who lived in the Chinatown in the US 100 years ago, they enjoyed total freedom (almost). Right? What did they do? They formed triads; they smoked pot; they fought each other; they were looked down upon. In current China, too much freedom will result in uncontrollable waste, instability, chaos. Yes, in this case, it’s hard to understand why the propaganda department barred the distribution of Obama’s interview from a foreigner’s standpoint. But the opening progress has to go gradually, in a controlled manner. Chinese people do enjoy more freedom than they did 10 years ago, 20 years ago.
There are classified information in the USA too. So just think that the CCP has a much wider classification on information distribution. Is it good or bad to China or Chinese people? It’s hard to say. But things look as stupid as they are, there are some reasoning under them. Don’t just reject it because it doesn’t match your world view.
Carryanne,
I live in the US and never check out what the CCP says about anything. Everything I say is common sense.
Tan,
In Canada, you have freedom of knowledge and a lot of freedom of expression, but guns are not legal…
And yes, America does have MAJOR social issues, not because of freedom, but I think it’s a lack of culture and values, social issues…
The crime rate will go sky high? You have no idea the amount of crime that is committed by the CCP and all of it’s lackies who rob at beat people freely, only it’s not considered crime, it’s considered state secrets and taboo issues which people are not allowed to care about.
I didn’t say the country should not be governed, but a good start to the rule of law is rationality and a universal legal basis. You can’t have that with CCP cause all they do is prosecute people who dare to expose corruption! It’s exactly backwards with that party, you need a real government that actually supports justice.
The opening has to be slow?? I think you’ve been had my friend. I think the Chinese people have been very tolerant and very gullible, just a little longer the CCP will rob you, just a little longer you will be in the dark…….When do you really think the CCP can let people have their dignity?
Big,
I can’t believe that.
87% of Chinese are happy with their government; only 37% American are happy with theirs. I would be surprise if carryanne does not work for the CIA because she just want to instigate discontent and troubles. Hope Chinese people are smart enough to smoke you out.
“You have no idea the amount of crime that is committed by the CCP and all of it’s lackies who rob at beat people freely, only it’s not considered crime, it’s considered state secrets and taboo issues which people are not allowed to care about.”
Carryanne, you are wrong. CCP don’t randomly rob and beat people freely. Who told you that CCP is doing that?
I lived in China for 30 years before I came to the US and I was never been beaten by any CCP remember. If you are talking about some of the beating occurred to FalongGong cult members, it’s a totally differnt story. Firstly, CCP did persuade people not to practice FalongGong; CCP didn’t just go about and beat people who are practice Falonggong without first warning them. I don’t consider it beating people freely. FalongGong is banned in China and practicing FalongGong is illegal in China. You can get arrested in any country if you are doing something illegal and if you resist arrest you could get beaten; it’s not beating people freely. Whether Falonggong should be banned or not is another matter.
The majority of Chinese people have their dignity. Collectively Chinese people have more dignity than they had when they were called “the sick man of Asia”, when there was sign saying “Chinese and dog are not allowed to enter” in Shanghai before CCP liberated China.
The crux of the problem is that, just as the Party constantly attempt to make people think this way, people like Tao do. They conflate two organisations / concepts which are in fact separate – China and the CPC. Criticism of the policies and actions of the CPC are not criticisms of China or ‘the Chinese’, and until all Chinese people themselves can openly recognise this self-evident fact, there will continue to be these xenophobic reactions from misinformed students like Mr Tao. And I’m afraid it is xenophobic. He says quite openly it is OK for a person of ethnic Chinese origin to criticise what is happening in China, but not ‘a foreigner’. How more xenophobic can one get?
In order for their to be a rational debate, there needs to be the environment in which such discussion can take place freely. And the rules regarding what can, or should not be, publicly stated should also be rationally debated and then clearly justified.
And of course, always subject to challenge, as in any ’scientific’ community. That is rational, scientific governance.
Tan, I did not say the CCP people go beating every person, but you people have no justice in China. The CCP doesn’t beat you, because it does not need to beat you, you are conforming to it’s position and you do not possess anything it feels the need and ability to steel from you. But, if your child’s school came crashing down because of shit bricks because of corruption between industry and CCP (which is the norm), would they hesitate to beat you to make you shut up? No. There are countless examples and Falun Gong is of course a very extreme example, but I’m just saying, if they want something for their little princes or they feel they need to beat people to stay in power and make everyone shut up, they DO, ALL THE TIME. They need to beat people that the other techniques haven’t worked on, so most Chinese , unfortunately, don’t need to actually be beaten because they have enough fear and ignorance that they are willing to conform.
You may think your dignity level is up, but is it not because China is under a veil of propaganda? I think it’s fake, it’s cowardly, superficial and unintelligent. You can’t even have a real conversation without coming up against the mindset such as this dude who is knowingly defending a total lie and covering up for a regime that enforces this lying.. Dignity? Half of the Chinese are taking advantage of each other and the other half are persecuted and robbed, nice.
Carryanne, have been to China? You seem like damonize China. Maybe they are not as free as you are, but they seem to be happier than you. Why do you care about what is going in China? Get a life and leave Chinese alone. I have so many Chinese friends living in China. No one seems to be oppressed and miserable as you had described. So, you are excercising your freedom of speech to lie!
Carryanne, about people being beaten up because they speak up against something in China. Well, it happens in every country without or without communist party. There are local thugs like Mafia or other interest groups that will beat people up if their interests are violated.
CCP doesn’t advocate violence against people who speak up. There are people within CCP who beat up people. Those CCP members are extremists and often got punished if their bad acts got exposed to the public.
You can’t equate those extremists within CCP to CCP in general just as you can’t equate Muslim extremists to Muslim population in general.
Carryanne, you seem to generalize special cases to CCP in general, which is not a reasonable practice and will gain no sympathy from people who can think logically.
Carryanne, you need to read books about China, not just listen to the West media, which are always sensationalizing things to their own gain (advertising profit, etc). Or at least listen to NPR for some real good coverage and analysis about China.
“”"”CCP doesn’t advocate violence against people who speak up. There are people within CCP who beat up people. Those CCP members are extremists and often got punished if their bad acts got exposed to the public.”"”"
Tan, this is your opinion and it looks like it is drawn from different sources than where I have gotten my information.
I definitely think the party wants you to think that it is not colluding with the lower cadres and allowing the lower cadres to function as a mafia. Of course it wants you to think it is just a few bad people…. But, according to what I know, the head of the party willingly lets this kind of thing happen all the time because it needs those cadres to support the head of the party in lying to the people and keeping the people in fear etc. If the CCP enforced justice from the top, wouldn’t then the top need to follow justice? I don’t see it being prepared to do that.
I live in China and Bigger’s comments just don’t fit what I see. Corruption is rampant in China (Chinese sex trafficking run by the Military)on all levels. No rule of law, the rich treat the poor like dirt, China’s pollution will kill all of us. The Chinese want to be treated like equals but when we call into question things like pollution, labor rights as part of trade we are told either 1) we are a developing country we can’t be treated the same or 2)stop interfering in internal affairs. China can’t have it both ways. People are genuinely afraid of speaking their minds due to the consequences. Also, 87 percent are happy with their government? I would love to see how that was conducted. If one doesn’t know the difference between what can be and what is one accepts the status quo. China is now “Animal Farm”, all animals are created equal, some are created more equal than others.
However, I believe there are many very good Chinese people. Most of the middle and lower middle class in China are very nice and genuine. So I don’t think it is a problem of the people.
Hi, Eric
I don’t know where you heard that Chinese sex trafficking run by the Military. It’s absolutely rumor and slander. I lived in China and I saw government cracked down on sex trafficking very hard and people who traffick women got very harsh sentences. Corruption is not CCP’s patent. Corruption has been a problem wherever there are Chinese.
Carryanne, if you know anything about China and CCP, you should there are the golden “Three disciplines and eight notices”. One of them is “don’t beat people”, another is “don’t abuse people verbally”. Those have been advocated by the CCP from the very start of the founding of red army. If you believe a government and a governing party will deliberately advocate violence, then you need to go back to school and study history and government.