2008年2月17日,美国公开了1973-1976年对中国的外交文档。

本文是1973年2月17日晚至18日凌晨,毛主席接见基辛格的美国官方记录,由“拨开迷雾看世界”公众号翻译为中文,用词以尽量保留英文原味为原则。

“美国对外关系”,1969-1976年,第十八卷,中国,1973-1976

12.对话备忘录1

北京, 1973年2月17日至18日,晚上11:30-凌晨1:20。

参加者

毛泽东 中共中央政治局主席

周恩来 国务院总理

王海荣 外交部助理部长

唐闻生 口译员

沈若芸 口译员

亨利•基辛格博士, 总统主管国家安全事务助理

温斯顿•洛德, 国家安全委员会工作人员

(晚上11:00,1973年2月17日,在基辛格等人所住宾馆附近的别墅举行的会议上,周总理通知基辛格博士,他和温斯顿•洛德受邀请,于晚上11点30分去见毛主席。他告诉他基辛格博士,他很快就会来宾馆护送他到主席的住处。

正在开会的基辛格博士和代表团成员回到了宾馆。周恩来总理晚上11点20分来到宾馆。然后和基辛格去中南海。礼宾部副主任楚先生陪同洛德。周总理陪同基辛格博士进入宾馆外面的房间,然后从另一个房间进入毛主席的客厅。

主席在年轻的女服务员的帮助下从椅子上站起来,走上前去向基辛格博士问好。摄影师拍了照片。他欢迎了基辛格,基辛格指出,他第一次见到主席还是一年前的事。随后,主席向洛德表示欢迎,说他太年轻了,比口译员还年轻。洛德答复说,他无论如何都要比口译员年长。然后,主席移向大安乐椅,大家坐了下来。摄影师们继续拍照。)

(朝椅子走去时):我看起来不错,但上帝已经给我发了邀请函。

[第124页]

(对洛德) 你是个年轻人。

洛德:我越来越老了。

毛主席:我是坐在这里的人中年龄最大的。

周总理:我是第二大的。

毛主席:英国军队中有人反对你们国家的独立。陆军元帅蒙哥马利就是反对你的政策的人之一。

:是的。

毛主席:他反对杜勒斯政策2 。他可能不再反对你了。当时你们也反对我们。我们也反对你们。所以我们是两个敌人(笑声)。

基辛格:两个前敌人。

毛主席:现在我们称我们之间的关系为友谊。

基辛格:这是我们的情感。

主席毛:我就是这么说的。

基辛格:我对总理说,我们同其他国家的谈话没有象我们对你那样坦率和公开。

主席毛(对摄影师说):就到这儿吧。

[摄影师离开]

但是,我们不要说假话,也不要搞诡计。我们不会偷你的文件。你可以故意把它们放在某个地方然后测试我们。我们也不进行偷听和窃听。那些小把戏是没用的。还有一些大动作,也没有用。我对你们的记者说过,埃德加·斯诺3,我说你的中央情报局对重大事件没有好处。

基辛格:这绝对是事实。这是我们的经验。

主席毛:因为当你发布命令时,例如,当你的总统发布命令,你想要关于某个问题的信息 ,那么情报就像雪花一样多。我们也有我们的情报部门,这和他们是一样的。他们做得不好(周总理笑 ) 比如,他们不知道林彪4。(周总理笑) 然后他们不知道你要来。

1969年我读了两篇文章。你的国务院中国办公室主任之一写了一篇文章,后来在一家日本报纸上发表。

基辛格:我想我没读过。

周总理:我以前没跟你提过这件事。

基辛格:没有。

毛主席:你的生意做得很好。你到处都在飞。你是燕子还是鸽子?(众笑)越南问题可以说已经基本解决。

基辛格:这就是我们的感觉。我们现在必须有一个走向安宁的过渡时期。

毛主席:是的,没错。

基辛格:基本问题得到解决。

毛主席:我们还说,在同样的情况下 (用手示意),当你们总统坐在这里时是这么说的,每一方都有自己的手段,出于自己的需要而采取行动。这导致了两国hand in hand 携手行动。

基辛格:是的,我们都面临着同样的危险。我们有时可能不得不使用不同的方法,但目的是相同的。

毛主席:那就好。只要目标相同,我们不会伤害你们,你们也不伤害我们。 我们可以共同努力对付一个混蛋。(众笑)

实际上,有时候我们想批评你们一下,你们想批评我们一下。你们总统说,这就是意识形态的影响。你们说,去你的共产党。我们说, 去你的帝国主义。有时候我们会说这样的话。不会不这么干的。

基辛格:我认为我们双方都必须忠于我们的原则。事实上,如果我们说同样的话,就会混淆状况。我已经告诉总理,在欧洲,由于你们的原则,你们可以说得比我们更坚定,多奇怪。

毛主席:至于你们,在欧洲和日本,我们希望你们能相互合作。至于有些事情,吵吵是可以的,但是需要基本的合作。

基辛格:在你们和我们之间,即使我们有时互相批评,我们也会和你们协调我们的行动,我们永远不会参与孤立你们的政策。至于日本[第126页]和欧洲, 我们同意我们应该在所有必要的问题上与他们合作。 欧洲现在的领导能力很弱。

毛主席:他们互相不团结。

基辛格:他们不团结,也不采纳有远见的观点。当他们面临危险的时候,他们希望能不劳而获。

周总理:我告诉基辛格你们[美国]仍应帮助蓬皮杜5。

毛主席:是的。

基辛格:我们正在尽最大努力,我们还会做更多。

毛主席:(用他的手做手势)现在蓬皮杜正受到威胁。 是社会党和共产党在用他们的力量反对他。

基辛格:是的,他们联合起来了。

毛主席:(指着基辛格)他们正在联合, 苏联希望共产党上台。我不喜欢他们的共产党,就像我不喜欢你们的共产党一样。我喜欢你,但不喜欢你们的共产党。(众笑)

在西方,你们在历史上总是有一种政策,例如,在两次世界大战时,你们都是推动德国去对打俄国。

基辛格:但我们的政策不是推动俄国去打中国,因为在中国的战争对我们的危险就和在欧洲的战争一样大。

毛主席:(在基辛格的话被翻译前,他用中文发表评论,数着自己的手指头。在毛主席发言后唐小姐翻译了基辛格的话)

我想说的是,你现在是否在推动西德与俄罗斯和解,然后把俄罗斯向东推进。我怀疑整个西方都有这样的想法,就是把俄罗斯推向东方,主要是针对我们和日本。也可能是针对你们,在太平洋和印度洋。

基辛格:我们不赞成这种政策。我们更喜欢德国反对党,他们不奉行这一政策。(毛主席在抽雪茄,邀请基辛格和洛德抽雪茄,被拒绝了)

[第127页]

毛主席:是的,这是我们的感觉。我们也支持德国的反对党。

基辛格:他们自己表现得很愚蠢。

毛主席:是的,他们被击败了。整个欧洲只想着和平。

周总理:他们的领导人制造了和平幻觉 。

基辛格:是的,但我们会尽最大努力加强欧洲的防御,把我们的军队留在欧洲。

毛主席:那非常好。

基辛格:我们在将来四年里没有大幅度削减我们驻欧洲部队的计划。(毛主席转向周总理)

周总理:在说到削减你们的军队时,你的意思是最多只减百分之十到百分之十五。

基辛格:完全正确 。

毛主席:美国在欧洲的驻军人数是多少?他们可能大部分是火箭部队。

周总理:包括地中海在内有30到35万人之间。

毛主席:这可能不包括海军。

基辛格:不包括海军。中欧大约有275,000人,不包括地中海的第六舰队。

毛主席:你们在亚洲和太平洋部署的部队太分散了。你们在韩国也有。我听说这个数字大约是30万。

基辛格:大概40,000人。

毛主席:蒋介石那里8到9千人。

周总理:在台湾。

毛主席:据说日本有两个集团,冲绳有4万人,日本本土有2至3万人。我不知道菲律宾有多少人。现在你在越南还留下了一万多一点。

基辛格:但他们都会被撤回。

毛主席:是的,我听说你在泰国有4万人。

基辛格:对的。 但主席提到的所有单位大多是空军部队,因此它们可能无法用人员的数目来衡量。

毛主席:你们也有地面部队,例如,在南朝鲜。

基辛格:在南朝鲜,我们有地面部队。

[第128页]

毛主席:这一切都是从杜鲁门和艾奇逊开始的。所以这次你们为杜鲁门开追悼会,我们没有去。(众笑)

基辛格:当你们在华盛顿有一个联络处时,将来就有可能了。

周总理:杜鲁门和约翰逊的追悼会都已经举行过了(毛主席和周总理笑)。

在我看来,你今天的声音似乎是嘶哑的。你明天应该休息一天。你为什么想接着谈这么多?

基辛格:因为你们和我们理解我们将要做什么,和协调我们的行动,是非常重要的,我们总是告诉总理我们在世界各个不同地区的计划是什么,这样你们就可以了解我们每一步的行动。

毛主席:是的。当你经过日本的时候,你应该多和他们谈谈。你只和他们谈了一天,这对他们的脸面不太好。

基辛格:主席先生,我们希望这次访问的重点放在北京的会谈上,我将另外单独访问东京。

毛主席:很好。也要和他们说清楚。

你知道日本人对苏联的感觉不是很好。

基辛格:他们非常模棱两可。

毛主席:(用手示意)一句话:在第二次世界大战期间,田中首相对我们的总理说,苏联所做的是, 当看到一个人在上吊时,他们就马上把椅子从他脚下拿走。

基辛格:是的。

毛主席:可以说他们一枪也没开,但却抢到了这么多地方(周总理咯咯笑)。他们占领了蒙古人民共和国。他们拿走了新疆的一半。这被称为势力范围。东北的满洲国,也被称为他们的势力范围。

基辛格:他们把所有工业设备都拿走了。

主席毛:是的。他们还占领了萨哈林岛和库拉尔斯岛。(毛主席和周总理彼此之间讨论了一下)萨哈林是库页岛的南部。我会在字典里查一查它的中文翻译。

基辛格:日本人被俄罗斯的经济机会所诱惑。

[第129页]

主席毛:(点点头)他们想在那里拿点东西。

基辛格:但我们将鼓励日本和我们之间建立更密切的关系,我们也欢迎他们与人民共和国的关系。

毛主席:我们也相信,日本与其与苏联建立更密切的关系,我们更希望他们把和你们的关系搞得更好。那样更好。

基辛格:如果日本和苏联建立更密切的政治关系,将是非常危险的。

毛主席:这似乎不太可能。

周总理:前景不太好。

毛主席:我们也可以在那里做一些工作。

基辛格:苏联提出了建议,但日本还没有作出回应。他们邀请了大平正芳去莫斯科。

周总理:是的,今年下半年。

基辛格:今年。

周总理:在这个问题上大平正芳对苏联比其他人有更清楚的看法。但他们有些人的理解不像他们的外交部长那么清楚。

基辛格:是这样的。

周总理:这也是你所说的官僚作风。

基辛格:我们准备就这些问题和你们交换信息。

周总理:(致毛主席)我们决定除了在首都互相设立一个联络处以外,还保持黄华和白宫的接触。

毛主席:(对周总理)压力在哪里?

周总理:联络处将处理一般公众交流。对于联络处未涉及的机密和紧急事项,我们将通过(联合国)大使黄华这个渠道.

毛主席:黄华遭遇了不幸(周总理笑)。他在你们的地方做得很好,一回到上海他就扭伤了后背。

基辛格:当他回来的时候,我们会为他找个医生。

主席毛:是的。(周总理笑)。他在你们那里似乎更安全。他一回到上海就倒下了。

从贵国总统接待我们杂技团的气氛来看,我认为越南问题将得到解决。

[第130页]

有传言说你要垮台了(笑声)。坐在这里的女士们都对此感到不满(笑声,尤其是女士中间)。她们说如果博士垮台,她们就要失业了。

基辛格:不仅在中国。

毛主席:是的,整条线会像多米诺骨牌一样倒塌。

基辛格:这些只是记者们的猜测。

主席毛:只是猜测?

基辛格:只是猜测。

主席毛:没有任何根据?

基辛格:没有任何根据。事实上,事实恰恰相反。我们现在能够让我们的人进入所有关键位置。

毛主席:(点头同意)你们总统现在说你在提议的什么,就像你在把长城从中国移到美国一样,那就是贸易壁垒。

基辛格:我们要做的是降低壁垒。

毛主席:降低?你这么做只是为了吓唬人。你说你要提高关税和非关税壁垒,也许你这样做是为了恐吓欧洲和日本。

基辛格:部分是。我们正在提议一项贸易法案,该法案赋予政府提高和降低壁垒的权力,以使其在国会获得通过。我们必须给人留下这样的印象:我们可能会增加壁垒。我们希望政府在没有国会批准的情况下就可以做,但是如果我们要求国会减少壁垒,他们会拒绝的。(周总理笑)这就是为什么我们要求政府有权增加或者减少壁垒。

毛主席:如果他们不给你呢?

基辛格:我们认为他们会给我们的。这将是一场艰难的战斗,但我们非常相信我们会赢。我们还以这样一种笼统的语言提出这一建议,即我们可以消除对人民共和国仍然存在的歧视。

毛主席:我们两国目前的贸易非常可怜。它正在逐渐增加。你知道中国是一个非常贫穷的国家。我们没有多少东西。我们过剩的是女人。 (笑声)

基辛格:对她们没有关税或配额 。

毛主席:如果你想要的话,我们可以给你一点,来个几万。(众笑)

周总理:当然,在自愿的基础上。

毛主席:让她们去你们的地方。她们会制造灾难。这样你们就可以减轻我们的负担了。(众笑)

[第131页]

基辛格:我们对中国贸易的利益不是商业性的。这是为了建立一种我们双方政治关系所必需的关系。

毛主席:是的。

基辛格:就是本着这样的精神我们展开了讨论。

毛主席:我曾经和一个外国朋友讨论过。(口译员与毛主席进行了讨论)我说我们应该画一条横线-美国--巴基斯坦-伊朗(毛主席咳得很厉害)-土耳其和欧洲。

基辛格:我们有一个非常相似的概念。你可能在一家报纸上读到过,赫尔姆斯先生已经调到伊朗了,有很多猜测这如何影响我了的立场。事实上 我们派了赫尔姆斯到伊朗去负责土耳其、伊朗、巴基斯坦和波斯湾,因为他在以前的位置上有经验,我们需要一个可靠的人在那个地方,他理解需要做的更复杂的事情。(毛主席再次点燃他的雪茄。)我们将授权他和所有这些国家打交道,尽管这不会被公开宣布。

毛主席:关于很多我们不太理解的你们在美国的事情。有很多事情我们不太了解。比如你们的内政, 我们不明白。还有很多关于外交政策的事情我们也不明白。也许在你未来的四年里,我们也许能学到一点。

基辛格:我告诉总理,你有比我们更直接,也许更英勇的行动模式。因为我们国内的情况,我们有时不得不使用更复杂的方法。(毛主席质疑了“行动模式”的翻译,唐小姐重复了“行动模式”)但在我们的基本目标上,我们将采取非常果断的行动,而不考虑公众舆论。因此,如果一个真正的危险发生了,或者霸权意图变得活跃起来,我们肯定会抵制它们,无论它们出现在哪里。就像总统对主席说的那样,为了我们自己的利益,而不是对其他人的仁慈。

毛主席:(笑)那些是诚实的话。

基辛格:这是我们的立场。

毛主席:你想要我们的中国女人吗?我们可以给你一千万。(笑声,尤其是在女士中)

基辛格:主席正在提升他的提议。

毛主席:通过这样做,我们可以让她们用灾难淹没你的国家,从而损害你们的利益。在我们的国家,我们有太多的女人,她们有做事的方法。 她们生了孩子,我们的孩子太多了。 (笑声)

(第132页)

基辛格:这是一个如此新奇的建议,我们必须先研究一下。

毛主席:你可以成立一个委员会来研究这个问题。这就是你访问中国解决人口问题的方式。(众笑)

基辛格:我们将研究(如何)利用和分配。

毛主席:如果我们让她们去,我想她们会愿意的。

周总理:不一定 。

毛主席:那是因为她们的封建思想,大民族沙文主义。

基辛格:我们当然愿意接受她们。

毛主席:中国人是非常排外的。

例如,在你们国家,你们可以让这么多国家的人进来,但在中国,你看到多少外国人?

周总理:很少。

基辛格:很少。

毛主席:你们大概有60万中国人。我们这里可能连60个美国人都没有。我想研究这个问题。我不知道原因。

唐小姐:洛德先生的妻子是中国人。

毛主席:哦?

洛德:是的。

毛主席:我研究了这个问题。我不知道为什么中国人不喜欢外国人。也许是这里没有印第安人。就日本人来说,他们数量也不多;和其他相比,有相当多的人,有些人结婚和定居了。

基辛格:当然,你们与外国人相处的经历并不是那么美好。

毛主席:是的,也许这是一些原因。

是的,在过去的百年里,主要是八国联军,后来又是义和团革命时期的日本。日本占领中国十三年,占领了中国的大部分地区;过去的联军,外国侵略者,不仅占领了中国领土,还向中国要求赔偿。

基辛格:是的,还有治外法权。

毛主席:现在我们和日本的关系中,我们没有要求他们赔偿,这会加重人民的负担。很难计算出所有的赔款。没有会计师能做到。

只有这样,我们才能从敌视走向缓和人民之间的关系。更难的是解决(第133页)日中两国人民之间的敌意,而不是解决我们和你们之间的敌意更难。

基辛格:是的。美国人对中国人一点敌意都没有。相反地,我们之间现在只存在一个法律问题。(毛主席点头同意)我们将在未来几年解决它。但是现在有一个强大的利益共同体立即运作了。

毛主席:是这样吗?

基辛格:中国与美国之间。

毛主席:你所说的利益共同体是什么意思?对台湾?

基辛格:对可能有意图的其他国家。

周总理:你是说苏联吗?

基辛格:我是说苏联。

周总理:沈小姐理解你。

毛主席:(看着沈小姐)精通英语的中国人。(对周总理)她是谁?

周总理:沈若芸小姐。

毛主席:女孩们。(周总理笑)今天我一直在说一些胡说八道的话,我不得不请求中国妇女们的原谅。

基辛格:这听起来对在场的美国人来说很有吸引力。(毛主席和女孩们笑)

毛主席:如果我们要在你们国家设立一个联络处,你要沈小姐还是唐小姐?

基辛格:我们将通过黄华的渠道处理这个(众笑)

毛主席:我们的口译员实在太少了。

基辛格:但是他们做了一项了不起的工作,我们见过的口译员。

毛主席:你见过的口译员和我们目前正在做大部分工作的口译员现在都是二十多岁和三十多岁了。如果他们年纪老了,他们的翻译就不会那么好了。

周总理:我们应该送一些到国外去。

毛主席:我们要把这么高的孩子送去 (用他的手表示),不要太老。

基辛格:我们将准备建立交换项目,你们可以把学生送到美国去。

毛主席:如果一百个人中有十个人学好了这门语言,那就是[第134页]了不起的成功。如果其中有几十个人不想回来,例如,一些女孩想留在美国,没关系。因为你们不像中国人这样排外。过去中国人出国了,他们不想学当地语言。(看着唐小姐)她的祖父母拒绝学英语6。他们太固执了。你知道中国人非常固执和保守。许多老一辈的海外华人都不会讲当地语言。但他们越来越好了,年轻一代。

基辛格:在美国,所有人或大多数人都说英语。

周总理:那就是年轻人。第一代人不学习当地语言。有一个老华侨在国外生活后回到了中国。她上了年纪,五十年代在北京去世,当时她九十多岁。她是我国人民政府的一员。她一句英语都不会说。她是广东人,非常保守。

基辛格:中国文化如此独特,很难同化其他文化。

毛主席:中国话不错,但汉字不好。

周总理:它们很难学习。

毛主席:口语和书面语之间存在着许多冲突,因为口头语言是单音节的,而书面语是从符号发展而来的。我们不用字母表。

基辛格:有人告诉我试图在用字母。

周总理:首先,我们必须规范口语。

毛主席:(用手指着他的书)但是如果苏联扔炸弹把30岁以上的中国人都杀了,那就解决了我们的问题。因为像我这样的老人学不了中文。我们念中文。我大部分的书都是中文的。那里有少量字典。其他的书都是中文的。

基辛格:主席现在正在学习英语吗?

毛主席:我听说我正在学习它。这些都是外面的谣言。我不听他们的。他们是假的。我知道一些英文字母。我不懂语法。

唐小姐:主席发明了一个英语单词。

[第135页]

毛主席:是的,我发明了英语术语“纸老虎”。

基辛格:“纸老虎”。是的,那都是为了我们。(众笑)

毛主席:但你是一个来自德国的德国人。但是你们德国现在遭遇了厄运,因为它在两次战争中都被打败了。

基辛格:它想要的太多了,超出了它的能力和资源。

毛主席:是的,而且它还在战争中分散了自己的军队。例如,它对苏联的攻击。如果它要进攻,它应该在一个地方进攻,但是他们把他们的部队分成三个战线。它从六月开始,但到了冬天,他们无法忍受,因为天气太冷了。欧洲人害怕寒冷的原因是什么?

基辛格:德国人没有为长期战争做好准备。事实上,他们直到1943年才动员起全部军队。我同意主席的看法,如果他们集中力量在一条战线上,他们几乎肯定会赢。他们即使分散了兵力也离莫斯科只有十公里。(毛主席重新点燃了他的雪茄。)

毛主席:他们不应该攻击莫斯科或基辅。他们应该把夺取列宁格勒作为第一步。策略上的另一个错误是他们在敦刻尔克之后没有渡海。

基辛格:敦刻尔克之后。

毛主席:他们完全没有准备。

基辛格:希特勒是个浪漫主义者。他对英国有一种奇怪的喜爱。

毛主席:哦?那他们为什么不去那里呢?因为当时的英国人完全没有军队。

基辛格:如果他们能够穿越英吉利海峡进入英国…我想他们在整个英格兰只有一个师。

周总理:是吗?

基辛格:是的。

周总理:安东尼•伊登爵士在德国告诉我们,丘吉尔政府军队的一位部长当时说,如果希特勒越过海峡,他们就没有部队了。他们撤回了所有的部队。当他们准备德国入侵时,丘吉尔没有武器。他只能组织警察保卫海岸。如果他们渡海,他们将无法防守。

基辛格:它也展示了一个勇敢的人所能做的事,因为丘吉尔的性格造就了他的力量,远远超过了他们所拥有的力量。

毛主席:事实上到了那个时候,他们顶不住。

[第136页]

周总理:所以希特勒对英国怀有一些浪漫的感情?

基辛格:我认为他是个疯子,但他对英国确实有一些感情。

毛主席:我相信希特勒来自莱茵河地区?

基辛格:奥地利。

周总理:他是第一次世界大战中的一名士兵。

基辛格:他曾在德国陆军服役,但他是奥地利本地人。

周总理:来自多瑙河。

基辛格:他艺术性地执行了战略,与其说是战略性地。他凭直觉做了这件事。他没有总体计划。

毛主席:那为什么德国军队这么听从他呢?

基辛格:可能是因为德国人有点浪漫,而且他一定有很强的个性。

毛主席:主要是因为在第一次世界大战期间,德意志民族受到羞辱。

基辛格:是的,这是一个非常重要的因素。

主席毛:如果有俄国人进攻中国,我今天可以告诉你,我们进行战争的方式是游击战和持久战。我们会让他们去任何他们想去的地方。(周总理笑)他们想去黄河支流。那好,非常好。(众笑)如果他们再深入长江支流,那也不坏。

基辛格:但如果他们使用炸弹而不派遣军队呢?(众笑)

毛主席:我们该怎么办?也许你可以组织一个委员会来研究这个问题。我们会让他们打我们,他们会失去所有资源。他们说他们是社会主义者。我们也是社会主义者,那就是社会主义者进攻社会主义者。

基辛格:如果他们进攻中国,我们肯定会出于我们自己的原因而反对他们。

毛主席:但是你的人民没有觉醒, 欧洲和你们会认为那将是一件好事,将祸水引向中国。

基辛格:欧洲怎么想我无法评判。反正他们什么也做不了。它们基本上不相关。(在这期间毛主席以茶向基辛格和洛德祝酒)我们认为,如果苏联占领中国,就会扰乱所有其他国家的安全,导致我们自己的孤立。

[第137页]

毛主席:(笑)怎么会发生那种事?怎么会?

因为你在越南陷入困境的时候遇到了这么多困难,你觉得如果他们在中国陷入困境,他们会不会感觉很好呢?

基辛格:苏联?

唐小姐:苏联。

毛主席:然后你可以让他们在中国陷入困境,半年,或者一年,两年,三年,或者四年。 然后你可以用手指戳戳苏联的后背。那时你们的口号将是为了和平,就是为了和平你们必须打倒社会主义的帝国主义。也许你可以开始帮助他们做生意,说不管你需要什么我们都将帮你反对中国。

基辛格:主席先生,我们必须了解对方的动机,这是非常重要的。我们绝不会明知故犯地合作攻击中国。

毛主席:(打断)不,不是这样的。你这么做的目的是要推翻苏联。

基辛格:那是一件非常危险的事。(众笑)

毛主席:(用双手做了个姿势)苏联的目标是占领欧洲和亚洲这两个大陆。

基辛格:我们希望阻止苏联的进攻,而不是打败它。我们想要防止它。(周总理看了他的手表。)

毛主席:说到事情,问题,在这个世界上,很难说。我们宁愿这样想。我们认为这样世界会更美好。

基辛格:哪条路?

主毛席:那就是他们将进攻中国并被打败。我们必须考虑最坏的情况。

基辛格:这是你的必要性。(周总理笑)

毛主席:我们国家有这么多女人,不知道怎么打架。

唐小姐:不一定。有娘子军。

毛主席:她们只是在舞台上。实际上,如果要打,你会飞快逃跑,跑进地下避难所。

王小姐:如果这次谈话的会议记录被公诸于众,就会引起一半人的公愤。

毛主席:这是中国人口的一半。

周总理:首先,外交部就通不过。

[第138页]

毛主席:我们可以把这称为秘密会议。 (中国人笑)我们今天的会议是公开的还是保密的?

基辛格:这取决于你。如果你愿意,我准备把它公诸于众。

毛主席:你的想法是什么?公开还是保密比较好?

基辛格:我想最好把它公诸于众。

毛主席:那么,我们今天说的关于妇女的话就当不存在了。(众笑)

基辛格:我们将把它们从记录中删除。(众笑)我回来后,我们会开始研究这个建议。

毛主席:你知道,中国人有一个伤害美国的计划,那就是把一千万妇女送到美国,通过增加人口来损害美国的利益。

基辛格:主席已经把这个想法在我的脑海中锁定了,所以我肯定会在我的下一次新闻发布会上使用它。(众笑)

毛主席:对我来说没问题。我什么都不怕。不管怎样,上帝已经给我发了一份邀请。

基辛格:我真的发现主席今年的健康状况比去年好。

毛主席:是的,我比去年好多了。

[摄影师走进房间。]

他们在向我们进攻。(然后,主席在没有帮助的情况下站起来,向美国人道别。)

请代我向尼克松总统问好,还有尼克松夫人。我没能会见她和罗杰斯秘书,我必须道歉。

基辛格:我一定会这么做的。

周总理:我们将在一小时内给你发一份新闻稿。

(毛主席送基辛格博士进入外面的房间,在那里向基辛格博士和洛德告别。周总理随后陪同基辛格博士至等候他的车。)

资料来源:国家档案馆,尼克松总统材料,国家安全委员会文件,基辛格办公文件,盒号98,国家文件,远东哈克“中国之行”,备忘录和报告(原件),1973年2月。最高机密;敏感;仅限阅读。会议是在毛的中南海住所。所有括号 都在原件中。基辛格2月17日的备忘录,以电报方式发送,通过斯考克罗夫特至尼克松,描述与毛的会议“是非常坦率和诚恳的,但其实质是如此敏感,我应该亲自向你报告。”(同上,哈克旅行文件,盒号29,曼谷,万象,河内,,北京,东京之行,行程信息,致总统的备忘录,1973年2月7日至20日)

这份谈话备忘录也印在基辛格文稿,William Burr编辑(第86-101页)。在解释毛对蒙哥马利元帅的评论是,Burr 指出这位英国战争英雄曾在1960年和1961年访问过中国。在那次旅行中,他见到了毛和周并谴责美国前国务卿的约翰·福斯特·杜勒斯的政策,反对承认共产主义中国。

记者埃德加·斯诺写了《红星照耀中国》, 在1930年代向美国人介绍毛泽东。

林彪, 中华人民共和国国防部长,1959年至1971年9月,据称密谋刺杀毛。

法国于3月4日和11日举行大选。蓬皮杜所在的联盟在国民议会中占多数。

唐闻生(南希·唐)出生于美国。

FOREIGN RELATIONS OF THE UNITED STATES, 1969–1976, VOLUME XVIII, CHINA, 1973–1976

12. Memorandum of Conversation1

Beijing, February 17–18, 1973, 11:30 p.m.–1:20 a.m.

PARTICIPANTS

Mao Tsetung, Chairman, Politburo, Chinese Communist Party

Chou En-lai, Premier of the State Council

Wang Hai-jung, Assistant Minister of Foreign Affairs

Tang Wen-sheng, Interpreter

Shen Jo-yun, Interpreter

Dr. Henry A. Kissinger, Assistant to the President for National Security Affairs

Winston Lord, NSC Staff

(At 11:00 p.m. February 17, 1973 at a meeting in a villa near the Guest House where Dr. Kissinger and his party were staying, Prime Minister Chou En-lai informed Dr. Kissinger that he and Winston Lord were invited to meet with Chairman Mao Tsetung at 11:30 p.m. that evening. He told Dr. Kissinger that he would come to the Guest House shortly to escort him to the Chairman’s residence.

Dr. Kissinger and his delegation members at the meeting went back to the Guest House. Prime Minister Chou En-lai came to the Guest House at 11:20 p.m. and rode with Dr. Kissinger to Chungnahai. Mr. Chu, Deputy Director of Protocol, accompanied Mr. Lord. Prime Minister Chou En-lai escorted Dr. Kissinger into the outer room of the Guest House and then through another room to Chairman Mao’s sitting room.

The Chairman was helped up from his chair by his young female attendant and came forward to greet Dr. Kissinger. Photographers took pictures. He welcomed Dr. Kissinger and Dr. Kissinger pointed out that it was almostly exactly a year ago that he had first met the Chairman. The Chairman then greeted Mr. Lord and commented that he was so young, younger than the interpreters. Mr. Lord replied that he was in any event older than the interpreters. The Chairman then motioned to the large easy chairs and the parties sat down. The photographers continued to take pictures.)

Chairman Mao (As he headed toward his chair): I don’t look bad, but God has sent me an invitation.

[Page 124]

(To Mr. Lord) You are a young man.

Mr. Lord: I am getting older.

Chairman Mao: I am the oldest among those seated here.

Prime Minister Chou: I am the second oldest.

Chairman Mao: There was someone in the British Army who was opposed to the independence of your country. Field Marshal Montgomery was one of those to oppose your policy.

Dr. Kissinger: Yes.

Chairman Mao: He opposed the Dulles policy.2 He probably doesn’t oppose you anymore. At that time, you also opposed us. We also opposed you. So we are two enemies (Laughter).

Dr. Kissinger: Two former enemies.

Chairman Mao: Now we call the relationship between ourselves a friendship.

Dr. Kissinger: That’s our sentiment.

Chairman Mao: That’s what I am saying.

Dr. Kissinger: I have told the Prime Minister that we speak to no other country as frankly and as openly as we do to you.

Chairman Mao (To the photographers): That’s all for you.

[The photographers leave.]

But let us not speak false words or engage in trickery. We don’t steal your documents. You can deliberately leave them somewhere and try us out. Nor do we engage in eavesdropping and bugging. There is no use in those small tricks. And some of the big maneuvering, there is no use to them too. I said that to your correspondent, Mr. Edgar Snow.3 I said that your CIA is no good for major events.

Dr. Kissinger: That’s absolutely true. That’s been our experience.

Chairman Mao: Because when you issue an order, for example, when your President issues an order, and you want information on a certain question, then the intelligence reports come as so many snowflakes. We also have our intelligence service and it is the same with them. They do not work well (Prime Minister Chou laughs). For [Page 125]instance, they didn’t know about Lin Piao.4 (Prime Minister Chou laughs) Then again they didn’t know you wanted to come.

I read two articles in 1969. One of your Directors of your China desk in the State Department wrote an article later published in a Japanese newspaper.

Dr. Kissinger: I don’t think I read that.

Prime Minister Chou: I hadn’t mentioned it to you before.

Dr. Kissinger: No.

Chairman Mao: Your business was done well. You’ve been flying everywhere. Are you a swallow or a pigeon? (Laughter) And the Vietnamese issue can be counted as basically settled.

Dr. Kissinger: That is our feeling. We must now have a transitional period toward tranquility.

Chairman Mao: Yes, that’s right.

Dr. Kissinger: The basic issues are settled.

Chairman Mao: We also say in the same situation (gesturing with his hand) that’s what your President said when he was sitting here, that each side has its own means and acted out of its own necessity. That resulted in the two countries acting hand-in-hand.

Dr. Kissinger: Yes, we both face the same danger. We may have to use different methods sometimes but for the same objectives.

Chairman Mao: That would be good. So long as the objectives are the same, we would not harm you nor would you harm us. And we can work together to commonly deal with a bastard. (Laughter)

Actually it would be that sometime we want to criticize you for a while and you want to criticize us for a while. That, your President said, is the ideological influence. You say, away with you Communists. We say, away with you imperialists. Sometimes we say things like that. It would not do not to do that.

Dr. Kissinger: I think both of us must be true to our principles. And in fact it would confuse the situation if we spoke the same language. I have told the Prime Minister that in Europe you, because of your principles, can speak more firmly than we can, strangely enough.

Chairman Mao: As for you, in Europe and Japan, we hope that you will cooperate with each other. As for some things it is alright to quarrel and bicker about, but fundamental cooperation is needed.

Dr. Kissinger: As between you and us, even if we sometimes criticize each other, we will coordinate our actions with you, and we would [Page 126]never participate in a policy to isolate you. As for Japan and Europe, we agree that we should cooperate on all essential matters with them. Europe has very weak leadership right now.

Chairman Mao: They don’t unite with each other.

Dr. Kissinger: They don’t unite, and they don’t take farsighted views. When they are confronted with a danger they hope it will go away without effort.

Prime Minister Chou: I told Dr. Kissinger you [the U.S.] should still help Pompidou.5

Chairman Mao: Yes indeed.

Dr. Kissinger: We are doing our utmost, and we will do more.

Chairman Mao: (Gesturing with his hands) Now Mr. Pompidou is being threatened. It is the Socialist Party and the Communist Party putting their strength against him.

Dr. Kissinger: Yes, and they have united.

Chairman Mao: (Pointing at Dr. Kissinger) They are uniting and the Soviet Union wants the Communist Party to get into office. I don’t like their Communist party, just like I don’t like your Communist party. I like you, but not your Communist party. (Laughter)

In the West you always historically had a policy, for example, in both World Wars you always began by pushing Germany to fight against Russia.

Dr. Kissinger: But it is not our policy to push Russia to fight against China, because the danger to us of a war in China is as great as a war in Europe.

Chairman Mao: (Before Dr. Kissinger’s remarks are translated, he makes remarks in Chinese and counts on his fingers. Miss Tang then translates Dr. Kissinger’s remarks and after that Chairman Mao’s remarks.)

What I wanted to say is whether or not you are now pushing West Germany to make peace with Russia and then push Russia eastward. I suspect the whole of the West has such an idea, that is to push Russia eastward, mainly against us and also Japan. Also probably towards you, in the Pacific Ocean and the Indian Ocean.

Dr. Kissinger: We did not favor this policy. We preferred the German opposition party which did not pursue this policy. (Chairman Mao, smoking a cigar, offers cigars to Dr. Kissinger and Mr. Lord who decline.)

[Page 127]

Chairman Mao: Yes, that’s our feeling. We are also in favor of the opposition party in Germany.

Dr. Kissinger: They conducted themselves very stupidly.

Chairman Mao: Yes, they were defeated. The whole of Europe is thinking only of peace.

Prime Minister Chou: The illusions of peace created by their leaders.

Dr. Kissinger: Yes, but we will do our best to strengthen European defenses and keep our armies in Europe.

Chairman Mao: That would be very good.

Dr. Kissinger: We have no plan for any large reduction of our forces in Europe for the next four years (Chairman Mao turns to Prime Minister Chou).

Prime Minister Chou: In talking about reducing your troops, you mean only at the most 10 to 15 percent.

Dr. Kissinger: That is exactly correct.

Chairman Mao: What is the number of American troops in Europe? They are probably mostly rocket units.

Prime Minister Chou: There are between 300–350,000 including the Mediterranean.

Chairman Mao: That probably does not include the Navy.

Dr. Kissinger: It does not include the Navy. There are about 275,000 in Central Europe. That does not include the Sixth Fleet in the Mediterranean.

Chairman Mao: And your troop deployment to Asia and the Pacific Ocean is too scattered. You have them in Korea. I heard the number is about 300,000.

Dr. Kissinger: About 40,000.

Chairman Mao: And from 8 to 9,000 with Chiang Kai-shek.

Prime Minister Chou: In Taiwan.

Chairman Mao: Then it is said that there are two groups in Japan, 40,000 in Okinawa and 20 to 30,000 in Japan proper. I don’t know how many there are in the Philippines. Now you have remaining in Vietnam a bit over 10,000.

Dr. Kissinger: But they will all be withdrawn.

Chairman Mao: Yes, and I heard that you have 40,000 in Thailand.

Dr. Kissinger: That is correct. But all the units the Chairman mentioned are mostly air force units and therefore they probably cannot be measured by the number of personnel.

Chairman Mao: You also have ground forces, for instance, in South Korea.

Dr. Kissinger: In South Korea we have ground forces.

[Page 128]

Chairman Mao: That was all begun by Truman and Acheson. So this time you held a memorial service for Truman and we didn’t go. (Laughter)

Dr. Kissinger: When you have a liaison office in Washington it will be more possible in the future.

Prime Minister Chou: You’ve held all these memorial services, both for Truman and Johnson (Chairman Mao and Prime Minister Chou laugh).

It seems to me that your voice is hoarse today. You should have a day’s rest tomorrow. Why do you want to continue to talk so much?

Dr. Kissinger: Because it is very important that you and we understand what we are going to do and to coordinate our actions, and therefore we always tell the Prime Minister what our plans are in various areas of the world so that you can understand the individual moves when they are made.

Chairman Mao: Yes. When you pass through Japan, you should perhaps talk a bit more with them. You only talked with them for one day and that isn’t very good for their face.

Dr. Kissinger: Mr. Chairman, we wanted this trip’s emphasis to be on the talks in Peking, and I will take a separate trip to Tokyo.

Chairman Mao: Good. And also make clear to them.

You know the Japanese feelings towards the Soviet Union are not so very good.

Dr. Kissinger: They are very ambivalent.

Chairman Mao: (Gesturing with his hand) In a word, during the Second World War, Prime Minister Tanaka told our Premier, what the Soviet Union did was that upon seeing a person about to hang himself, they immediately took the chair from under his feet.

Dr. Kissinger: Yes.

Chairman Mao: It could be said that they didn’t fire a single shot and yet they were able to grab so many places (Prime Minister Chou chuckles). They grabbed the People’s Republic of Mongolia. They grabbed half of Sinkiang. It was called a sphere of influence. And Manchukuo, on the northeast, was also called their sphere of influence.

Dr. Kissinger: And they took all the industry out of it.

Chairman Mao: Yes. And they grabbed also the islands of Sakhalin and the Kuriles Island. (Chairman Mao and Prime Minister Chou discuss among themselves.) Sakhalin is the southern part of the Kuriles Island. I will look it up in the dictionary to see what its Chinese translation is.

Dr. Kissinger: The Japanese are tempted by the economic possibilities in Russia.

[Page 129]

Chairman Mao: (Nodding yes) They want to grab something there.

Dr. Kissinger: But we will encourage closer ties between Japan and ourselves, and also we welcome their relationship with the People’s Republic.

Chairman Mao: We also believe that rather than Japan having closer relations with the Soviet Union, we would rather that they would better their relations with you. That would be better.

Dr. Kissinger: It would be very dangerous if Japan and the Soviet Union formed closer political relations.

Chairman Mao: That doesn’t seem likely.

Prime Minister Chou: The prospects are not too good.

Chairman Mao: We can also do some work there.

Dr. Kissinger: The Soviet Union has made overtures but the Japanese have not responded. They have invited Ohira to go to Moscow.

Prime Minister Chou: Yes, this year, the second half.

Dr. Kissinger: This year.

Prime Minister Chou: And it seems on this question that Ohira has a clearer idea of the Soviet Union than others. But there are some not so clear in their understanding as their Foreign Minister.

Dr. Kissinger: That is correct.

Prime Minister Chou: That is also the bureaucracy as you term it.

Dr. Kissinger: We are prepared to exchange information with you on these matters.

Prime Minister Chou: (To Chairman Mao) We have decided besides establishing a liaison office in each capital to maintain the contact between Huang Hua and the White House.

Chairman Mao: (To Prime Minister Chou) Where is the stress?

Prime Minister Chou: The liaison office will handle the general public exchanges. For confidential and urgent matters not covered by the liaison office we will use the channel of Ambassador Huang Hua.

Chairman Mao: Huang Hua has met an ill fate (Prime Minister Chou laughs). He was doing very well in your place and immediately upon his return to Shanghai, he twisted his back.

Dr. Kissinger: We will find a doctor for him when he returns.

Chairman Mao: Yes. (Prime Minister Chou laughs). He seemed more safe in your place. Immediately upon his return to Shanghai he collapsed.

From the atmosphere with which your President received our acrobatic troupe, I thought that the Vietnamese issue was going to be settled.

[Page 130]

There were some rumors that said that you were about to collapse (laughter). And the women folk seated here were all dissatisfied with that (laughter, especially pronounced among the women). They said if the Doctor is going to collapse, we would be out of work.

Dr. Kissinger: Not only in China.

Chairman Mao: Yes, and the whole line would collapse like dominos.

Dr. Kissinger: Those were just journalists’ speculation.

Chairman Mao: Only speculation?

Dr. Kissinger: Only speculation.

Chairman Mao: No ground whatsoever?

Dr. Kissinger: No ground whatsoever. In fact the opposite was true. We have now been able to place our men into all key positions.

Chairman Mao: (Nodding yes) Your President is now saying that you are proposing something as if you were moving the Great Wall from China to the United States, that is, trade barriers.

Dr. Kissinger: What we want to do is lower barriers.

Chairman Mao: To lower them? Then you were doing that just to frighten people. You are saying that you are going to raise tariffs and non-tariff barriers and maybe you do that to intimidate Europe and Japan.

Dr. Kissinger: Partly. We are proposing a trade bill which gives both the power to raise and lower barriers, in order to get it passed through Congress. We must create the impression that we might increase barriers. We want executive authority to do it without Congressional approval, but if we ask Congress to reduce barriers they would refuse. (Prime Minister Chou laughs.) And this is why we are asking for executive authority to move in either direction.

Chairman Mao: What if they don’t give it to you?

Dr. Kissinger: We think they will give it to us. It will be a difficult battle, but we are quite certain we will win. We are proposing it also in such general language that we can remove discrimination that still exists towards the People’s Republic.

Chairman Mao: The trade between our two countries at present is very pitiful. It is gradually increasing. You know China is a very poor country. We don’t have much. What we have in excess is women. (Laughter)

Dr. Kissinger: There are no quotas for those or tariffs.

Chairman Mao: So if you want them we can give a few of those to you, some tens of thousands. (Laughter)

Prime Minister Chou: Of course, on a voluntary basis.

Chairmain Mao: Let them go to your place. They will create disasters. That way you can lessen our burdens. (Laughter)

[Page 131]

Dr. Kissinger: Our interest in trade with China is not commercial. It is to establish a relationship that is necessary for the political relations we both have.

Chairman Mao: Yes.

Dr. Kissinger: That is the spirit with which we are conducting our discussions.

Chairman Mao: I once had a discussion with a foreign friend. (The interpreters hold a discussion with Chairman Mao.) I said that we should draw a horizontal line—the U.S.–Japan–Pakistan–Iran (Chairman Mao coughs badly.)–Turkey and Europe.

Dr. Kissinger: We have a very similar conception. You may have read in a newspaper that Mr. Helms has been moved to Iran, and there was a great deal of speculation how this affected my position. In fact we sent Helms to Iran to take care of Turkey, Iran, Pakistan and the Persian Gulf, because of his experience in his previous position and we needed a reliable man in that spot who understands the more complex matters that are needed to be done. (Chairman Mao lights his cigar again.) We will give him authority to deal with all of these countries, although this will not be publicly announced.

Chairman Mao: As for such matters we do not understand very much your affairs in the United States. There are a lot of things we don’t know very well. For example, your domestic affairs, we don’t understand them. There are also many things about foreign policy that we don’t understand either. Perhaps in your future four years we might be able to learn a bit.

Dr. Kissinger: I told the Prime Minister that you have a more direct, maybe a more heroic mode of action than we do. We have to use sometimes more complicated methods because of our domestic situation. (Chairman Mao queries about the translation and Miss Tang repeats “mode of action.”) But on our fundamental objectives we will act very decisively and without regard to public opinion. So if a real danger develops or hegemonial intentions become active, we will certainly resist them wherever they appear. And as the President said to the Chairman, in our own interests, not as a kindness to anyone else.

Chairman Mao: (Laughing) Those are honest words.

Dr. Kissinger: This is our position.

Chairman Mao: Do you want our Chinese women? We can give you ten million. (Laughter, particularly among the women.)

Dr. Kissinger: The Chairman is improving his offer.

Chairman Mao: By doing so we can let them flood your country with disaster and therefore impair your interests. In our country we have too many women, and they have a way of doing things. They give birth to children and our children are too many. (Laughter)

[Page 132]

Dr. Kissinger: It is such a novel proposition, we will have to study it.

Chairman Mao: You can set up a committee to study the issue. That is how your visit to China is settling the population question. (Laughter)

Dr. Kissinger: We will study utilization and allocation.

Chairman Mao: If we ask them to go I think they would be willing.

Prime Minister Chou: Not necessarily.

Chairman Mao: That’s because of their feudal ideas, big nation chauvinism.

Dr. Kissinger: We are certainly willing to receive them.

Chairman Mao: The Chinese are very alien-excluding.

For instance, in your country you can let in so many nationalities, yet in China how many foreigners do you see?

Prime Minister Chou: Very few.

Dr. Kissinger: Very few.

Chairman Mao: You have about 600,000 Chinese in the United States. We probably don’t even have 60 Americans here. I would like to study the problem. I don’t know the reason.

Miss Tang: Mr. Lord’s wife is Chinese.

Chairman Mao: Oh?

Mr. Lord: Yes.

Chairman Mao: I studied the problem. I don’t know why the Chinese never like foreigners. There are no Indians perhaps. As for the Japanese, they are not very numerous either; compared to others there are quite a few and some are married and settled down.

Dr. Kissinger: Of course, your experience with foreigners has not been all that fortunate.

Chairman Mao: Yes, perhaps that is some reason for that.

Yes, in the past hundred years, mainly the eight powers, and later it was Japan during the Boxer Revolution. For thirteen years Japan occupied China, they occupied the major part of China; and in the past the allied forces, the invading foreigners, not only occupied Chinese territory, they also asked China for indemnity.

Dr. Kissinger: Yes, and extraterritorial rights.

Chairman Mao: Now in our relations with Japan, we haven’t asked them for indemnity and that would add to the burden of the people. It would be difficult to calculate all the indemnity. No accountant would be able to do it.

And only in this way can we move from hostility to relaxation in relations between peoples. And it will be more difficult to settle relations [Page 133]of hostility between the Japanese and Chinese peoples than between us and you.

Dr. Kissinger: Yes. There is no feeling of hostility of American people at all toward the Chinese people. On the contrary. Between us right now there is only essentially a juridical problem. (Chairman Mao nods agreement.) Which we will solve in the next years. But there is a strong community of interest which is operating immediately.

Chairman Mao: Is that so?

Dr. Kissinger: Between China and the U.S.

Chairman Mao: What do you mean by community of interest? On Taiwan?

Dr. Kissinger: In relation to other countries that may have intentions.

Prime Minister Chou: You mean the Soviet Union?

Dr. Kissinger: I mean the Soviet Union.

Prime Minister Chou: Miss Shen understood you.

Chairman Mao: (Looking toward Miss Shen.) The Chinese have a good command of English. (To Prime Minister Chou.) Who is she?

Prime Minister Chou: Miss Shen Jo-yun.

Chairman Mao: Girls. (Prime Minister Chou laughs.) Today I have been uttering some nonsense for which I will have to beg the pardon of the women of China.

Dr. Kissinger: It sounded very attractive to the Americans present.(Chairman Mao and the girls laugh.)

Chairman Mao: If we are going to establish a liaison office in your country do you want Miss Shen or Miss Tang?

Dr. Kissinger: We will deal with that through the channel of Huang Hua. (Laughter)

Chairman Mao: Our interpreters are truly too few.

Dr. Kissinger: But they have done a remarkable job, the interpreters we have met.

Chairman Mao: The interpreters you have met and our present interpreters who are doing most of the work are now in their twenties and thirties. If they grow too old they don’t do interpretation so well.

Prime Minister Chou: We should send some abroad.

Chairman Mao: We will send children at such a height (indicating with his hands), not too old.

Dr. Kissinger: We will be prepared to establish exchange programs where you can send students to America.

Chairman Mao: And if among a hundred persons there are ten who are successful learning the language well, then that would be a [Page 134]remarkable success. And if among them a few dozens don’t want to come back, for example, some girls who want to stay in the United States, no matter. Because you do not exclude foreigners like Chinese. In the past the Chinese went abroad and they didn’t want to learn the local language. (Looking toward Miss Tang) Her grandparents refused to learn English.6 They are so obstinate. You know Chinese are very obstinate and conservative. Many of the older generation overseas Chinese don’t speak the local language. But they are getting better, the younger generation.

Dr. Kissinger: In America, all, or the vast majority, speak English.

Prime Minister Chou: That is the younger people. The first generation ones don’t learn the local language. There was an old overseas Chinese who came back to China after living abroad. She was old and died in Peking in the 1950s when she was in her nineties. She was a member of our People’s Government. She didn’t speak a word of English. She was Cantonese, extremely conservative.

Dr. Kissinger: Chinese culture is so particular that it is difficult to assimilate other cultures.

Chairman Mao: Chinese language is not bad, but the Chinese characters are not good.

Prime Minister Chou: They are very difficult to learn.

Chairman Mao: And there are many contradictions between the oral and written language because the oral language is monosyllabic while the written language develops from symbols. We do not use the alphabet.

Dr. Kissinger: There are some attempts to use an alphabet I am told.

Prime Minister Chou: First we must standardize the oral language.

Chairman Mao: (Gestures with his hand and points to his books.) But if the Soviet Union would throw its bombs and kill all those over 30 who are Chinese, that would solve the problem for us. Because the old people like me can’t learn Chinese. We read Chinese. The majority of my books are Chinese. There are very few dictionaries over there. All the other books are in Chinese.

Dr. Kissinger: Is the Chairman learning English now?

Chairman Mao: I have heard that I am studying it. Those are rumors on the outside. I don’t heed them. They are false. I know a few English letters. I don’t know the grammar.

Miss Tang: The Chairman invented an English word.

[Page 135]

Chairman Mao: Yes, I invented the English term “paper tiger.”

Dr. Kissinger: “Paper tiger.” Yes, that was all about us. (Laughter)

Chairman Mao: But you are a German from Germany. But your Germany now has met with an ill fate, because in two wars it has been defeated.

Dr. Kissinger: It attempted too much, beyond its abilities and resources.

Chairman Mao: Yes, and it also scattered its forces in war. For example, in its attack against the Soviet Union. If it is going to attack, it should attack in one place, but they separated their troops into three routes. It began in June but then by the winter they couldn’t stand it because it was too cold. What is the reason for the Europeans fear of the cold?

Dr. Kissinger: The Germans were not prepared for a long war. Actually they did not mobilize their whole forces until 1943. I agree with the Chairman that if they had concentrated on one front they would almost certainly have won. They were only ten kilometers from Moscow even by dispersing their forces. (Chairman Mao relights his cigar.)

Chairman Mao: They shouldn’t have attacked Moscow or Kiev. They should have taken Leningrad as a first step. Another error in policy was they didn’t cross the sea after Dunkirk.

Dr. Kissinger: After Dunkirk.

Chairman Mao: They were entirely unprepared.

Dr. Kissinger: And Hitler was a romantic. He had a strange liking for England.

Chairman Mao: Oh? Then why didn’t they go there? Because the British at that time were completely without troops.

Dr. Kissinger: If they were able to cross the channel into Britain … I think they had only one division in all of England.

Prime Minister Chou: Is that so?

Dr. Kissinger: Yes.

Prime Minister Chou: Also Sir Anthony Eden told us in Germany at that time that a Minister in the Army of Churchill’s Government said at that time if Hitler had crossed the channel they would have had no forces. They had withdrawn all their forces back. When they were preparing for the German crossing, Churchill had no arms. He could only organize police to defend the coast. If they crossed they would not be able to defend.

Dr. Kissinger: It also shows what a courageous man can do because Churchill created by his personality much more strength than they possessed.

Chairman Mao: Actually by that time they couldn’t hold.

[Page 136]

Prime Minister Chou: So Hitler carried some romantic feelings about Britain?

Dr. Kissinger: I think he was a maniac, but he did have some feelings about Britain.

Chairman Mao: I believe Hitler was from the Rhine area?

Dr. Kissinger: Austria.

Prime Minister Chou: He was a soldier in the First World War.

Dr. Kissinger: He was in the German Army, but he was a native of Austria.

Prime Minister Chou: From the Danube.

Dr. Kissinger: He conducted strategy artistically rather than strategically. He did it by intuition. He had no overall plan.

Chairman Mao: Then why did the German troops heed him so much?

Dr. Kissinger: Probably because the Germans are somewhat romantic people and because he must have had a very strong personality.

Chairman Mao: Mainly because during the First World War the German nation was humiliated.

Dr. Kissinger: Yes, that was a very important factor.

Chairman Mao: If there are Russians going to attack China, I can tell you today that our way of conducting a war will be guerrilla war and protracted war. We will let them go wherever they want. (Prime Minister Chou laughs.) They want to come to the Yellow River tributaries. That would be good, very good. (Laughter) And if they go further to the Yangtse River tributaries, that would not be bad either.

Dr. Kissinger: But if they use bombs and do not send armies? (Laughter)

Chairman Mao: What should we do? Perhaps you can organize a committee to study the problem. We’ll let them beat us up and they will lose any resources. They say they are socialists. We are also socialists and that will be socialists attacking socialists.

Dr. Kissinger: If they attack China, we would certainly oppose them for our own reasons.

Chairman Mao: But your people are not awakened, and Europe and you would think that it would be a fine thing if it were that the ill water would flow toward China.

Dr. Kissinger: What Europe thinks I am not able to judge. They cannot do anything anyway. They are basically irrelevant. (In the midst of this Chairman Mao toasts Dr. Kissinger and Mr. Lord with tea.) What we think is that if the Soviet Union overruns China, this would dislocate the security of all other countries and will lead to our own isolation.

[Page 137]

Chairman Mao: (Laughing) How will that happen? How would that be?

Because since in being bogged down in Vietnam you met so many difficulties, do you think they would feel good if they were bogged down in China?

Dr. Kissinger: The Soviet Union?

Miss Tang: The Soviet Union.

Chairman Mao: And then you can let them get bogged down in China, for half a year, or one, or two, or three, or four years. And then you can poke your finger at the Soviet back. And your slogan then will be for peace, that is you must bring down Socialist imperialism for the sake of peace. And perhaps you can begin to help them in doing business, saying whatever you need we will help against China.

Dr. Kissinger: Mr. Chairman, it is really very important that we understand each other’s motives. We will never knowingly cooperate in an attack on China.

Chairman Mao: (Interrupting) No, that’s not so. Your aim in doing that would be to bring the Soviet Union down.

Dr. Kissinger: That’s a very dangerous thing. (Laughter)

Chairman Mao: (Using both hands for gestures) The goal of the Soviet Union is to occupy both Europe and Asia, the two continents.

Dr. Kissinger: We want to discourage a Soviet attack, not defeat it. We want to prevent it. (Prime Minister Chou looks at his watch.)

Chairman Mao: As for things, matters, in the world, it is hard to say. We would rather think about things this way. We think this way the world would be better.

Dr. Kissinger: Which way?

Chairman Mao: That is that they would attack China and be defeated. We must think of the worst eventuality.

Dr. Kissinger: That is your necessity. (Prime Minister Chou laughs.)

Chairman Mao: We have so many women in our country that don’t know how to fight.

Miss Tang: Not necessarily. There are women’s detachments.

Chairman Mao: They are only on stage. In reality if there is a fight you would flee very quickly and run into underground shelters.

Miss Wang: If the minutes of this talk were made public, it would incur the public wrath on behalf of half the population.

Chairman Mao: That is half of the population of China.

Prime Minister Chou: First of all, it wouldn’t pass the Foreign Ministry.

[Page 138]

Chairman Mao: We can call this a secret meeting. (Chinese laughter) Should our meeting today be public, or kept secret?

Dr. Kissinger: It’s up to you. I am prepared to make it public if you wish.

Chairman Mao: What is your idea? Is it better to have it public or secret?

Dr. Kissinger: I think it is probably better to make it public.

Chairman Mao: Then the words we say about women today shall be made nonexistent. (Laughter)

Dr. Kissinger: We will remove them from the record. (Laughter) We will start studying this proposal when I get back.

Chairman Mao: You know, the Chinese have a scheme to harm the United States, that is, to send ten million women to the United States and impair its interests by increasing its population.

Dr. Kissinger: The Chairman has fixed the idea so much in my mind that I’ll certainly use it at my next press conference. (Laughter)

Chairman Mao: That would be all right with me. I’m not afraid of anything. Anyway, God has sent me an invitation.

Dr. Kissinger: I really find the Chairman in better health this year than last year.

Chairman Mao: Yes, I am better than last year.

[The photographers entered the room.]

They are attacking us. (The Chairman then gets up without assistance to say goodbye to the Americans.)

Please give my warm regards to President Nixon. Also to Mrs. Nixon. I was not able to meet her and Secretary Rogers. I must apologize.

Dr. Kissinger: I will certainly do that.

Prime Minister Chou: We will send you a press release in one hour.

(Chairman Mao escorts Dr. Kissinger into the outer room where he says goodbye to Dr. Kissinger and Mr. Lord. Prime Minister Chou then escorts Dr. Kissinger to his waiting car.)

Source: National Archives, Nixon Presidential Materials, NSC Files, Kissinger Office Files, Box 98, Country Files, Far East, HAK China Trip, Memcons & Reports (originals), February 1973. Top Secret; Sensitive; Exclusively Eyes Only. The meeting was held in Mao’s residence at Chungnahai. All brackets are in the original. A February 17 memorandum from Kissinger, sent telegraphically through Scowcroft, to Nixon recounted that the meeting with Mao “was extremely frank and cordial, but the substance is of such sensitivity that I should report it to you in person.” (Ibid., HAK Trip Files, Box 29, Bangkok, Vientiane, Hanoi, Hong Kong, Peking, Tokyo Trip, Itinerary Como Info, Memos to Pres., February 7–20, 1973)

This memorandum of conversation is also printed in The Kissinger Transcripts, edited by William Burr (pp. 86–101). In explaining Mao’s comment about Field Marshal Montgomery, Burr notes that the British war hero visited China in 1960 and 1961. On that trip he met with Mao and Zhou and condemned the American policy associated with former Secretary of State John Foster Dulles of opposing recognition of Communist China.

The journalist Edgar Snow wrote the book, Red Star Over China, that introduced Mao to an American audience during the 1930s.

Lin Biao, PRC Minister of Defense from 1959 to September 1971, allegedly plotted to assassinate Mao.

France held a general election on March 4 and 11. The coalition associated with French President Georges Pompidou maintained a majority in the National Assembly.

Tang Wen-sheng (Nancy Tang) was born in the United States.